Women and roles
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09-09-2011, 07:41 PM
Women and roles
I seem to get into discussions regularly on the importance of equality for women (not for a minute saying that women are better than men, or ethnic equality isn't as important), and I contend that christianity promotes women as being in a role that is subjected to the male in the family and church. Most of the counter arguments revolve around 'god said it' with a good dose of all the problems of women in the workforce, kids missing out, cant have two 'heads' women are made differently (duh) etc. I contend that equality is first and foremost about rights and opportunity, hence everyone in society has the same right to choose their place, their future, and how they want to live (yes understand physical limitations etc,) and that the relationship between partners should be based on that each partner has equal right to made decisions. When some one is not allowed to partake in a position, role , job or the like, based on their gender (or for that matter ethnicity) that is wrong. Not being able to do something based on experience, physical or mental ability is not inequality. people need to earn their place yes, but when something is not allowed based solely on gender, this is inequality.
What do others think?

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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09-09-2011, 08:26 PM
RE: Women and roles
All i can add is i completly agree with you.

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09-09-2011, 08:44 PM
RE: Women and roles
(09-09-2011 08:26 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  All i can add is i completly agree with you.

I am all for equal treatment for women, but in the US it almost seems like its taboo to be a man anymore.
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10-09-2011, 12:11 AM
RE: Women and roles
I was cruising online a while back & found a blog put up by a mother in the interest of raising her daughters with an eye to being good xtian wives. WTF. I truly wish I could find it now but can't. At least not without spending more than 5 minutes looking at xtian childrearing blogs, & there is a limit to my tolerance.

Welll....ok. Maybe one. Here's a little something I pulled from the "about" part of some whacko's blog:

"I'm a moderately conservative, proudly homeschooling, Jesus following, Bible reading, church-going, Israel supporting, fervently praying, no birth control, looking for the Rapture any day now, Born-again CHRISTIAN. I'm also a stay at home mom of eight blessings so far. My husband and I have three angels in Heaven, and five children here."

My favorite part? Her modifier of "moderately." Sigh...Fuck me....which actully seem to be what she was saying, over & over.

I have a boy. He's 11. And I can tell you from personal experience, as well as the superb books "The Female Brain," & "The Male Brain," the sexes are deeply different. Back in the fabled hippy days, there was the thought that if you raised girls & boys the same, they would not have any of those silly gender differences. Forget about that. I've seen my son make a gun from a book. Also a piece of wire. Also a cracker. I think there was, for a time, the idea all gender differences were externally applied, & that turns out not to be the case. Nonetheless, of course everyone should get to choose what he or she wants to do. Because there are always people all over the spectrum.

I recently started a blog (which is still very young so I'm not exactly plugging it here) leaning toward helping teach kids skeptical thinking, toward religion, but also advertising & general life. And the final catalyst was that whenever I looked for some sort of mother/wifey thing, like how to remove melted twizzler stains from a backpack, I'd inevitably hit on some xtian wife blog. Sure, she had clever ideas for slow cooker recipes, but the whole point of her writing was to say this - I'll paraphrase: I am cooking & cleaning & raising my kids & taking care of my husband because this is the ONLY CORRECT ROLE for me in this life.

Meanwhile I'm staying at home, working at marketing my husband's artwork, doing his website, &...cooking & cleaning & raising my kid & taking care of my husband.

Being a history geek, I have read much in the realm of the history of the home economics movement, & related subjects. The Victorian era had a very weird outlook on the place of women. They belived that women were more angelic, & closer to heaven. They had the role of keeping the home, of making the home a place like unto heaven, a haven into which the man of business could return from the crass world of business. Men were considered well made for the world of business, & women poorly fitted, as any intellect they might have had was taken up by their naturally holy thoughts & inclination to heavenly things. In this way they were prettily excused from any need to involve themselves in business or politics. Their reign over the place of god in the home was seen as the absolute best match to their skills.

I do think the current evangie movement borrows much from this. They are eager to say women have rights & power, yet the plethora of good wife blogs makes it clear that in xtian eyes, it is entirely acceptable & even preferred to stay at home & be the wife & mother. My life may look similar on the surface, but I do it because that's what's happening right now in my life. I have worked as a highly paid consultant for corporations, traveled widely, spend a great deal of time in the family business working on his web site & doing his marketing, & make my decisions jointly with my sweetie, & defer to him about the same amount as he defers to me. Also I am the main parent, providing the guidance & discipline.

It is the illusion of rights, of control, that the current xtian movement borrows so ably from the 1800s. The victorian woman had much control over her house, yet her word stopped at the door. How similar is this to these quiverful women who persevere to keep a perfect house, yet allow their husbands to make all larger life-changing decisions?

Every time you say you don't believe, Jesus rips the wings off a fairy. - SkepticalParenting.com
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10-09-2011, 01:07 AM
RE: Women and roles
(10-09-2011 12:11 AM)EvilMomLady Wrote:  The Victorian era had a very weird outlook on the place of women. They belived that women were more angelic, & closer to heaven. They had the role of keeping the home, of making the home a place like unto heaven, a haven into which the man of business could return from the crass world of business. Men were considered well made for the world of business, & women poorly fitted, as any intellect they might have had was taken up by their naturally holy thoughts & inclination to heavenly things. In this way they were prettily excused from any need to involve themselves in business or politics.

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10-09-2011, 02:12 AM
RE: Women and roles
(10-09-2011 12:11 AM)EvilMomLady Wrote:  I was cruising online a while back & found a blog put up by a mother in the interest of raising her daughters with an eye to being good xtian wives. WTF.

I found this and it horrified me, i wanted to throw something
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20...o_lady.htm


My site: http://www.cracksinthemirror.com

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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10-09-2011, 07:40 AM
RE: Women and roles
I found this and it horrified me, i wanted to throw something
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20...o_lady.htm

[/quote]

Wow. That kind of sh...tuff makes me wish that something unfortunate would happen to that individual. Let's make it Biblicly appropriate...just for him. Boils, perhaps?

You know, I've always believed that religions that follow that kind of crap are reacting out of fear. They fear the inherent beauty and power of women, especially the fact that most of us don't demand out right recognition for our work and efforts and are simply happy that we do work, and do it well, to the point that it satisfies ourselves. I think they envy it and I think they aren't happy until they squash it into nothing.

I don't know if you're already familiar with this organization, but have you checked out the Association of Libertarian Feminists? Their website is a bit basic (they're also on Facebook), but they are one of the best sites geared towards the more atheist mindset. It's http://www.alf.org. Hope you like it.
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10-09-2011, 08:40 AM
RE: Women and roles
(10-09-2011 02:12 AM)Blythe Wrote:  
(10-09-2011 12:11 AM)EvilMomLady Wrote:  I was cruising online a while back & found a blog put up by a mother in the interest of raising her daughters with an eye to being good xtian wives. WTF.

I found this and it horrified me, i wanted to throw something
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20...o_lady.htm


My site: http://www.cracksinthemirror.com

I read that Christian thing I didn't think some of it was all bad, but applied to BOTH children. For example he mentioned shopping... children should be allowed to shop for themselves and for others, I know a lot of people who do not know how to budget and shop wisely.

However a lot of that seemed very... old fashioned and kinda cultist to me. I sincerely hope his oldest child is a boy child, after all, I'm the oldest and I feel comfortable being a leader and boss.

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10-09-2011, 08:47 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2011 08:55 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: Women and roles
There is nothing egalitarian or democratic about the Abrahamic religions. Xtians point at the misogyny of Muslims, but their tenets come from the same root - ancient Hebrews, with one king (old rich guy) and one high priest (old rich guy's best friend and supporter) leading a bunch of 1. patriarchs and lesser priests (old rich guys and supporters) 2. army (old rich guys' extra sons and other assorted young men: spear-fodder) 3. women and children (chattels; barter goods) and 4. servants and slaves (expendable).

"Kinder, Kuche, Kirche" (children, kitchen, church) was the German motto to denote women's role in society in the early 20th century and adopted in some degree by all Western conservatives. Now those same forces are trying to reverse all the secular progress of the past century and put women back in their place. What's really tragic is that the conservative women themselves are so terrified of being set adrift, unprotected in a fear-riddled political climate that they go along with this - even to the point of making war on other women. Reaching the girls oppressed by this philosophy may be our best chance of undermining it.

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10-09-2011, 09:28 AM
RE: Women and roles
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