Women reclaiming the word SLUT
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12-12-2013, 07:21 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 07:12 AM)Kavos Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 06:34 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I honestly did not know that the "Slutwalks" were NOT for women taking precautions. Did. Not. Know. That. Even though I do know that the 'slut' part is supposed to indicate that women should be free to dress as they'd like.
(there's a lot more to rape than a woman's outfit)


I worked at a rape crisis center for years and years in three different cities and we always focused on women learning to be careful.

Let us not lose focus that RAPE is an act of violence and NOT just sex.
I fear far too often that fact is ignored.

Well that's good. But the slutwalk women, all they seem to be interested in is giving up responsibility and encouraging others to do likewise. If a rape occurs, yes it's the man who did the bad thing, not the woman, but if it happens to her specifically because she was careless, then she has some responsibility too. That's not to say that she did a bad thing, but by being careless, she did a stupid thing, which increased her chances of being the victim, as opposed to somebody else. This is why we put locks on our doors and why security staff exist, and why we don't cross the road without looking and expect the drivers on the road to not run us over. Wishing to not be raped is a very noble pursuit, but it's not going to be successful without precautions and common sense. A rapist does what a rapist is supposed to do, which is to rape. Likewise, a woman who doesn't want to be raped ought to do what she's meant to do, which is to be sensible, rather than asking for it, which is what one effectively does in any situation when one is wilfully careless.


The clinics I was associated with taught self-defense classes. I may need to read up on the "Slutwalks" as I might not be as informed as I should be regarding their driving purpose. If they seek to ONLY blame men - then that's short-sighted. (and men are not the only ones who rape and women are not the only Victims of rape. Rape is RAPE and an act of violence more than an act of sex)

I do think the True fault lies with the criminal who's committing the CRIME. But I agree there's very much a common sense element to this as well. Like a woman should never encourage a rape situation - ie walk alone in the dark at night on back streets without a whistle, flashlight, pepper spray or having mastered self-defense classes at the very least. There are things women can and should do to help protect themselves.
But the crime belongs to the criminal and not the victim.

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12-12-2013, 07:38 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
Well at least you can see sense. One thing I would disagree with is the need to go around with whistles and pepper sprays and whatnot. Maybe that would be necessary in really dodgy places, but otherwise it just creates the belief that rape is always just around the corner. I think you have to be balanced, and simply look at your environment and respond sensibly without becoming paranoid. And this idea that 1 in 4 women or whatever it is has been raped, I think that's bullshit. Those slutwalk types love to exaggerate, and widen the definition of rape to the point where a woman can make a false accusation and get away with it. Women who falsely accuse men of rape should be punished. The slutwalkers would say that talking about false rape accusations only trivialises real rape. What a dumb attitude. I also don't have any love for the whole "consent is sexy" thing. More bullshit. Western women have very warped ideas about men and women, and interactions. That kind of nonsense would be laughed at in other parts of the world. Also I would say that being raped isn't the worst thing that can happen. The way western women go on it's like it's the most traumatic thing. Women get raped in other parts of the world, and sure, it's very bad and it does affect them, but isn't it ironic that western women are supposed to be the strong and independent ones, while non western women are far stronger and more philosophical.
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12-12-2013, 08:15 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 07:38 AM)Kavos Wrote:  Well at least you can see sense. One thing I would disagree with is the need to go around with whistles and pepper sprays and whatnot. Maybe that would be necessary in really dodgy places, but otherwise it just creates the belief that rape is always just around the corner. I think you have to be balanced, and simply look at your environment and respond sensibly without becoming paranoid. And this idea that 1 in 4 women or whatever it is has been raped, I think that's bullshit. Those slutwalk types love to exaggerate, and widen the definition of rape to the point where a woman can make a false accusation and get away with it. Women who falsely accuse men of rape should be punished. The slutwalkers would say that talking about false rape accusations only trivialises real rape. What a dumb attitude. I also don't have any love for the whole "consent is sexy" thing. More bullshit. Western women have very warped ideas about men and women, and interactions. That kind of nonsense would be laughed at in other parts of the world. Also I would say that being raped isn't the worst thing that can happen. The way western women go on it's like it's the most traumatic thing. Women get raped in other parts of the world, and sure, it's very bad and it does affect them, but isn't it ironic that western women are supposed to be the strong and independent ones, while non western women are far stronger and more philosophical.

You know I don't think I like this. I mean, who are you to say western women respond to rape like this and non-western women respond like this? Rape is a very personal tragedy and everyone reacts to it differently.

"The way western women go on it's like it's the most traumatic thing. Women get raped in other parts of the world, and sure, it's very bad and it does affect them, but isn't it ironic that western women are supposed to be the strong and independent ones, while non western women are far stronger and more philosophical."

Really?? Rape IS a traumatic thing. I truly hope you never have to find out first hand. And, yea, sure it's very bad and it affects people. There is no shame in not being "strong" enough to handle being raped. Have you ever been raped? Because you seem to talk about it like it is no big deal.
Probably the reason some women react more strongly is because they have been taught self worth from a young age. If you are raised somewhere where rape is just an everyday thing and society sees it as no big deal, then you are more likely to internalize your pain.
It seems ridiculous to imply that women who deal with rape best are the strongest most philosophical women 0.o
Maybe I just read it wrong, love, but it seems like you are being very insensitive.
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12-12-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 07:38 AM)Kavos Wrote:  Well at least you can see sense. One thing I would disagree with is the need to go around with whistles and pepper sprays and whatnot. Maybe that would be necessary in really dodgy places, but otherwise it just creates the belief that rape is always just around the corner. I think you have to be balanced, and simply look at your environment and respond sensibly without becoming paranoid. And this idea that 1 in 4 women or whatever it is has been raped, I think that's bullshit. Those slutwalk types love to exaggerate, and widen the definition of rape to the point where a woman can make a false accusation and get away with it. Women who falsely accuse men of rape should be punished. The slutwalkers would say that talking about false rape accusations only trivialises real rape. What a dumb attitude. I also don't have any love for the whole "consent is sexy" thing. More bullshit. Western women have very warped ideas about men and women, and interactions. That kind of nonsense would be laughed at in other parts of the world. Also I would say that being raped isn't the worst thing that can happen. The way western women go on it's like it's the most traumatic thing. Women get raped in other parts of the world, and sure, it's very bad and it does affect them, but isn't it ironic that western women are supposed to be the strong and independent ones, while non western women are far stronger and more philosophical.

So you wish women to be more pragmatic and logical regarding rape yet not be prepared? (like pepperspray, etc) I agree arming women with paranoia isn't a good course of action. But there's a difference with designing paranoia and literally living prepared. That depends a great deal on a woman's geography (mostly - although rape knows no particular class)
Anyway - you do seem to be focused more on the aspect of sex than understanding that RAPE is an act of violence.

Maybe it would be good to clear that up? And I, for one, would not promote false statistics regarding rape nor do I see a need to exaggerate what is already a horrible crime. If one person is raped - male or female - that's one too many.
This is a pretty good source if you want numbers:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/

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12-12-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 08:16 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 07:38 AM)Kavos Wrote:  Well at least you can see sense. One thing I would disagree with is the need to go around with whistles and pepper sprays and whatnot. Maybe that would be necessary in really dodgy places, but otherwise it just creates the belief that rape is always just around the corner. I think you have to be balanced, and simply look at your environment and respond sensibly without becoming paranoid. And this idea that 1 in 4 women or whatever it is has been raped, I think that's bullshit. Those slutwalk types love to exaggerate, and widen the definition of rape to the point where a woman can make a false accusation and get away with it. Women who falsely accuse men of rape should be punished. The slutwalkers would say that talking about false rape accusations only trivialises real rape. What a dumb attitude. I also don't have any love for the whole "consent is sexy" thing. More bullshit. Western women have very warped ideas about men and women, and interactions. That kind of nonsense would be laughed at in other parts of the world. Also I would say that being raped isn't the worst thing that can happen. The way western women go on it's like it's the most traumatic thing. Women get raped in other parts of the world, and sure, it's very bad and it does affect them, but isn't it ironic that western women are supposed to be the strong and independent ones, while non western women are far stronger and more philosophical.

So you wish women to be more pragmatic and logical regarding rape yet not be prepared? (like pepperspray, etc) I agree arming women with paranoia isn't a good course of action. But there's a difference with designing paranoia and literally living prepared. That depends a great deal on a woman's geography (mostly - although rape knows no particular class)
Anyway - you do seem to be focused more on the aspect of sex than understanding that RAPE is an act of violence.

Maybe it would be good to clear that up? And I, for one, would not promote false statistics regarding rape nor do I see a need to exaggerate what is already a horrible crime. If one person is raped - male or female - that's one too many.
This is a pretty good source if you want numbers:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/

When I started reading your first paragraph, it sounded on the surface like you were disagreeing with me. But as I read on, you're just saying what I said. Be prepared - check. Don't be paranoid - check. Adapt to the environment - check. If you read my post again you'll see that obviously I'm not suggesting that women be unprepared. I really don't get why you think otherwise. I did make it quite clear. We don't disagree.

I don't care why rapists rape, all that matters is that it happens sometimes and that women need to take personal responsibility to make sure that it's not them that it happens to. I don't have the mind or motivation of a rapist so my speculation on why they do it can only be based on why I might do it. If I was to imagine any reason why I would rape a woman, I guess it would be for the thrill of the chase and the sex itself (certainly not any violence, apart from the struggle involved, which would be the appealing part of it, much like sinking your teeth into a juicy steak like an animal, but I wouldn't want to actually hurt her) which is what I imagine would be similar to why a woman would fantasize about being raped. They most probably like the "being taken" part of it.

Having sex and then regretting it isn't grounds for making an accusation of rape. Being too drunk to consent isn't either, just as drinking and then running someone over won't get you very far in court. If a man and a woman are both drunk, then have sex, she can easily say that he raped her because she couldn't consent, whereas he's held responsible regardless. I know it's just anecdotal of me to say, but I've read a few times of people talking to police officers in private and being told that many rape accusations are false but they have to go through the whole procedure regardless.
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12-12-2013, 08:42 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 08:15 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You know I don't think I like this. I mean, who are you to say western women respond to rape like this and non-western women respond like this? Rape is a very personal tragedy and everyone reacts to it differently.

"The way western women go on it's like it's the most traumatic thing. Women get raped in other parts of the world, and sure, it's very bad and it does affect them, but isn't it ironic that western women are supposed to be the strong and independent ones, while non western women are far stronger and more philosophical."

Really?? Rape IS a traumatic thing. I truly hope you never have to find out first hand. And, yea, sure it's very bad and it affects people. There is no shame in not being "strong" enough to handle being raped. Have you ever been raped? Because you seem to talk about it like it is no big deal.
Probably the reason some women react more strongly is because they have been taught self worth from a young age. If you are raised somewhere where rape is just an everyday thing and society sees it as no big deal, then you are more likely to internalize your pain.
It seems ridiculous to imply that women who deal with rape best are the strongest most philosophical women 0.o
Maybe I just read it wrong, love, but it seems like you are being very insensitive.

Really, most people are not that unique. People don't react to things in totally unique ways. If you're a member of one culture, most likely you will be more or less a clone of many hundreds of thousands of others in the same culture. And if you're a member of another culture, it will be pretty much the same. People have been around a long time, we're not that original any more. Many people are extremely similar, particularly when you're united in many ways by a culture, which most people are to some extent.

I say that because it is very reasonable to make generalizations about how people behave and react to things. Yes people are traumatized by this and that, but people of different cultures tend to respond quite differently. Look at the typhoon in the Philippines. If that happened in your country you can bet that it will be as though the world had come to an end. But people in others parts of the world are far stronger in many ways, and have the inner strength to handle certain hardships better than other people can. And that's not just because they're more accustomed to them, but also because their culture has a certain philosophy, which may sound blunt and simplistic to westerners.

So it's fair to say that if, for example, a woman in Africa or Asia is raped, her outlook would be quite different to that of a western woman. "Dust yourself off and move on" sounds horrible and insensitive to western ears, but to someone in another culture, it's perfect common sense. And that's why in western countries you have many therapists and counsellors and psychologists, whereas in many other parts of the world, people really do dust themselves off and move on. They have thick skin and are far less likely to need mollycoddling. That's not to say that therapy, etc isn't good, but westerners are generally weaker than other people, and need it more.

I never said that rape isn't traumatic. What I said was that other cultures are more thick skinned.
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12-12-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 08:31 AM)Kavos Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 08:16 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  So you wish women to be more pragmatic and logical regarding rape yet not be prepared? (like pepperspray, etc) I agree arming women with paranoia isn't a good course of action. But there's a difference with designing paranoia and literally living prepared. That depends a great deal on a woman's geography (mostly - although rape knows no particular class)
Anyway - you do seem to be focused more on the aspect of sex than understanding that RAPE is an act of violence.

Maybe it would be good to clear that up? And I, for one, would not promote false statistics regarding rape nor do I see a need to exaggerate what is already a horrible crime. If one person is raped - male or female - that's one too many.
This is a pretty good source if you want numbers:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/

When I started reading your first paragraph, it sounded on the surface like you were disagreeing with me. But as I read on, you're just saying what I said. Be prepared - check. Don't be paranoid - check. Adapt to the environment - check. If you read my post again you'll see that obviously I'm not suggesting that women be unprepared. I really don't get why you think otherwise. I did make it quite clear. We don't disagree.

I don't care why rapists rape, all that matters is that it happens sometimes and that women need to take personal responsibility to make sure that it's not them that it happens to. I don't have the mind or motivation of a rapist so my speculation on why they do it can only be based on why I might do it. If I was to imagine any reason why I would rape a woman, I guess it would be for the thrill of the chase and the sex itself (certainly not any violence, apart from the struggle involved, which would be the appealing part of it, much like sinking your teeth into a juicy steak like an animal, but I wouldn't want to actually hurt her) which is what I imagine would be similar to why a woman would fantasize about being raped. They most probably like the "being taken" part of it.

Having sex and then regretting it isn't grounds for making an accusation of rape. Being too drunk to consent isn't either, just as drinking and then running someone over won't get you very far in court. If a man and a woman are both drunk, then have sex, she can easily say that he raped her because she couldn't consent, whereas he's held responsible regardless. I know it's just anecdotal of me to say, but I've read a few times of people talking to police officers in private and being told that many rape accusations are false but they have to go through the whole procedure regardless.


Glad we agree. Got it Cool

I also appreciate your last paragraph in that I believe far too often (due to the heinous crime of rape) that women *can* be guilty of misusing it/misdiagnosing it on purpose. And I think at times society (if not actual courts) are too quick to see a man's guilt when it's more likely that there were two in that tango.
What makes matters worse is that we as a society continue to be seemingly confused about what rape IS and therefore it doesn't get the treatment it deserves - attitude & attention wise. For every man who is falsely accused we set the whole thing back years. And for every woman who Does the false accusation we set ourselves back even further. Rape is bad enough as it is - without being spread out into what it is not. But *sigh* we are a selfish culture who'll use a court of law or a restraining order first and consider our OWN responsibility in creating a problem second.
Pretty sad if you ask me.

Also wanted to add that the clinics I helped with we also offered workshops on the theme of "Dont be a victim" which went beyond self-defense classes or handing out containers of pepper spray --- Dont be a Victim ALSO means Not setting yourself up for failure and owning your own behavior. For example: Not agreeing to meet an old boyfriend for a drink at some bar when he's already shown abusive tendencies....and such and so forth. It would blow your mind how often a woman is unaware of what abusive tendencies actually are. (and men as well - this really does apply for both sexes and not women alone)

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12-12-2013, 09:02 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 08:44 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 08:31 AM)Kavos Wrote:  When I started reading your first paragraph, it sounded on the surface like you were disagreeing with me. But as I read on, you're just saying what I said. Be prepared - check. Don't be paranoid - check. Adapt to the environment - check. If you read my post again you'll see that obviously I'm not suggesting that women be unprepared. I really don't get why you think otherwise. I did make it quite clear. We don't disagree.

I don't care why rapists rape, all that matters is that it happens sometimes and that women need to take personal responsibility to make sure that it's not them that it happens to. I don't have the mind or motivation of a rapist so my speculation on why they do it can only be based on why I might do it. If I was to imagine any reason why I would rape a woman, I guess it would be for the thrill of the chase and the sex itself (certainly not any violence, apart from the struggle involved, which would be the appealing part of it, much like sinking your teeth into a juicy steak like an animal, but I wouldn't want to actually hurt her) which is what I imagine would be similar to why a woman would fantasize about being raped. They most probably like the "being taken" part of it.

Having sex and then regretting it isn't grounds for making an accusation of rape. Being too drunk to consent isn't either, just as drinking and then running someone over won't get you very far in court. If a man and a woman are both drunk, then have sex, she can easily say that he raped her because she couldn't consent, whereas he's held responsible regardless. I know it's just anecdotal of me to say, but I've read a few times of people talking to police officers in private and being told that many rape accusations are false but they have to go through the whole procedure regardless.


Glad we agree. Got it Cool

I also appreciate your last paragraph in that I believe far too often (due to the heinous crime of rape) that women *can* be guilty of misusing it/misdiagnosing it on purpose. And I think at times society (if not actual courts) are too quick to see a man's guilt when it's more likely that there were two in that tango.
What makes matters worse is that we as a society continue to be seemingly confused about what rape IS and therefore it doesn't get the treatment it deserves - attitude & attention wise. For every man who is falsely accused we set the whole thing back years. And for every woman who Does the false accusation we set ourselves back even further. Rape is bad enough as it is - without being spread out into what it is not. But *sigh* we are a selfish culture who'll use a court of law or a restraining order first and consider our OWN responsibility in creating a problem second.
Pretty sad if you ask me.

Also wanted to add that the clinics I helped with we also offered workshops on the theme of "Dont be a victim" which went beyond self-defense classes or handing out containers of pepper spray --- Dont be a Victim ALSO means Not setting yourself up for failure and owning your own behavior. For example: Not agreeing to meet an old boyfriend for a drink at some bar when he's already shown abusive tendencies....and such and so forth. It would blow your mind how often a woman is unaware of what abusive tendencies actually are. (and men as well - this really does apply for both sexes and not women alone)

It's funny how when you really get down to it, all therapy, counselling, self help, psychoanalysys and all the rest of it, all it really boils down to at the end of the day is "pull your socks up". It's just that in non western countries, they get straight to it, which makes them come off as primitive, when in fact there is a lot of wisdom in simple words. This is why the best teachers are those who can simplify, and why in science the best formulas are the most simple and elegant. You got raped? Well, sorry to hear that, now pull your socks up and move on. Simple.
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12-12-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 09:02 AM)Kavos Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 08:44 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Glad we agree. Got it Cool

I also appreciate your last paragraph in that I believe far too often (due to the heinous crime of rape) that women *can* be guilty of misusing it/misdiagnosing it on purpose. And I think at times society (if not actual courts) are too quick to see a man's guilt when it's more likely that there were two in that tango.
What makes matters worse is that we as a society continue to be seemingly confused about what rape IS and therefore it doesn't get the treatment it deserves - attitude & attention wise. For every man who is falsely accused we set the whole thing back years. And for every woman who Does the false accusation we set ourselves back even further. Rape is bad enough as it is - without being spread out into what it is not. But *sigh* we are a selfish culture who'll use a court of law or a restraining order first and consider our OWN responsibility in creating a problem second.
Pretty sad if you ask me.

Also wanted to add that the clinics I helped with we also offered workshops on the theme of "Dont be a victim" which went beyond self-defense classes or handing out containers of pepper spray --- Dont be a Victim ALSO means Not setting yourself up for failure and owning your own behavior. For example: Not agreeing to meet an old boyfriend for a drink at some bar when he's already shown abusive tendencies....and such and so forth. It would blow your mind how often a woman is unaware of what abusive tendencies actually are. (and men as well - this really does apply for both sexes and not women alone)

It's funny how when you really get down to it, all therapy, counselling, self help, psychoanalysys and all the rest of it, all it really boils down to at the end of the day is "pull your socks up". It's just that in non western countries, they get straight to it, which makes them come off as primitive, when in fact there is a lot of wisdom in simple words. This is why the best teachers are those who can simplify, and why in science the best formulas are the most simple and elegant. You got raped? Well, sorry to hear that, now pull your socks up and move on. Simple.


No Kvos - No!
Sorry - this is where you and I must split. As the victim of rape (more than once) I assure you it is far more difficult than "pull up your socks and move on".
Please don't ask me to explain that. But....... unless you've been raped it's really hard to *know* what is involved. You can't know and that's ok. But let's give the victims of rape a little bit more respect, more space and more compassion - please.

As it is - I see myself as fair and reasonable considering Far more than just the victim part alone. But no........ it's far from simple recovering from rape.

sorry

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12-12-2013, 09:25 AM
RE: Women reclaiming the word SLUT
(12-12-2013 09:02 AM)Kavos Wrote:  You got raped? Well, sorry to hear that, now pull your socks up and move on. Simple.

While I actually agree with this to an extent, I hope you would never say something like that to a rape victim. I think pulling your socks up (which I assume means the same thing as dust yourself off) and moving on is so much easier on the outside. And that's ok. You can't just wallow around in self pity and put your life on hold. You have to keep living as if you were never raped. Emotionally it can be so much harder to move on. I think it really depends on who/what/when/where/why of the rape also.
I guess you're right about people not being super unique. I think what I meant was that some people are crushed with emotional grief while others are fine after a day or so.
Also I totally agree about drunk sex not being rape. Ok if a sober person takes liberties with a drunk person who is passed out or only semi conscious then yea that is rape. But if two drunk people have sex that is not rape.
I never really understand being too drunk to concent. What does that mean? How drunk is too drunk? IMO the only time you're too drunk to consent it if you're passed out.
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