Woo is woo, religious or not.
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04-03-2013, 12:13 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 12:09 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(02-08-2012 11:01 PM)Filox Wrote:  Look, I get what you are saying, but my last years decision to not take the swine flu vaccine (or was it 2 years ago?) has proven to be a good decision, because that vaccine was not tested enough and it had nasty side effects for more percentage than it should have. The immunologists have said it was not tested enough. A lot of doctors gave advice to their patients that they are better to take only the normal flu vaccine, but not the swine flu one. From that point on, I tend to be far more careful about those things. Every year there is a new vaccine and their transparency and known facts about that years vaccine influence my decision about taking it. I think this is very intelligent and smart option, far better than just take whatever somebody produces, without questioning and checking what it is about.
I agree. Testing is important, especially if there is a significant change in production methods. If you're allergic to eggs, you need to be very careful re which vaccines you take, but if the H1N1 flu had been as deadly as the 1916 flu, you would still have been better off taking it and taking your chances with the possible side-effects rather than taking your chances with that flu. We dodged the bullet with H1N1, next time we might not be so lucky.

In your case the people who took the shot before you were the test subjects and your doctor was probably right with his advice. Where your GP and a researcher working specifically in research on a particular disease disagree about something, I think you would be better off taking the advice of the researcher who would typically have more up to date information. If that kind of disagreement happened to me, I would point out the disagreeing article to my doctor and ask him to consider it. If he still disagreed, I would get a 2nd opinion from another doctor. So far, my doctor has kept up to date, so the problem has not come up. It is a good idea to keep up to date with the latest scientific discoveries, but it is a terrible idea to reject science altogether and get your health advice from anti-vaccine propaganda sites or from purveyors of woo like Dr. Oz or the thousands of "naturopathic" or "alternative medicine" sites out there. Despite the ongoing efforts of magic based "medical" groups like the chiroquacter's associations to be recognized as primary care physicians, the fact remains that it takes at least 8 years of intensive scientific and practical education to become a real doctor vs at most 3 years and sometimes even only a few weeks to become "certified" in one of the woo-woo hand-waving magic-based branches of Big Quack. Here are some links to more useful information on this and related topics -- from real medical doctors and medical researchers who actually took the time and trouble to learn a lot about what they are talking about:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/inde...-efficacy/
http://www.quackwatch.com/
http://edgydoc.com/

Are you going to get the flu shot next year?
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04-03-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 12:07 PM)I and I Wrote:  How effective is the flu vaccine? Not very effective at all.
http://m.naturalnews.com/news/038826_flu...itals.html


Their math is ignorant - that is not how effectiveness is calculated. The quoted numbers show a 56% effectiveness.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 12:15 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 12:08 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I'm only anti-vaccine when it comes to the flu shot and the chicken pox vaccine. Luckily the chicken pox one I dont have to worry about. Somehow i managed to survive that on my own. (must be a miracle.)

Oh no, you didn't get the flu vaccine? How are you alive right now. Lolz.
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04-03-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 12:12 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 12:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I see, the deaths of children outside of the U.S. don't count. Consider

Nearly half of the cases in the U.S. resulted in hospitalization for supportive care, thereby lowering the risk of complications or death. The worldwide statistics show that the disease is deadly.

So you are attributing measles deaths in third world poverty that has many other variables affecting their health.

A kid getting the measles in a poor part of Haiti vs the u.s.

Your stupid brain has to use common sense for this one: the kid in Haiti with measles is far more likely to die from measles than a kid in the u.s. with measles.

Are vaccinated kids in danger from non vaccinated kids?
A child in a third world country is obviously at greater risk.

Do you understand the concept of herd immunity?

Do you understand that no vaccine is 100% effective?

Do you think the risk of disease is lower than the risk of vaccination?

Do you use your brain for anything other than paranoia?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 12:42 PM by ufo42.)
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 11:49 AM)I and I Wrote:  Speaking of measles in particular, why is a vaccine necessary for this?

When did the decline in measles begin? Stats say that measles wasn't deadly and was on the decline before the vaccine was even given on a massive scale.

Are vaccinated people threatened when a non vaxer is around them?
Vaccinated people are somewhat threatened by anti-vaxers because not all people respond as well as most people do to a given vaccine. No vaccine is 100% effective, but all vaccines, in order to be offered to everyone, have to be sufficiently effective to make it worth the time money, and yes, possible side effects, to have everyone take it.

As for measles, it is making a come-back because of celebrity-addled idiots refusing to vaccinate their kids against it and even encouraging them (on the advice of criminal publications like "Melanie's Marvelous Measles") to contract it. Contrary to the insane claims of the anti-vaxers, measles is not innocuous. The chance of an adverse side-effect from a measles shot is about 1 in a million. The chance of going blind, deaf, or dying from a measles infection is 1 in 500. If I had the option of taking that bet when I got measles as a child (and trust me, it was NOT a fun experience even though I was one of the lucky 499 of 500 who didn't have serious long-term effects) -- I would have gladly taken the shot. As a responsible parent, I made sure my daughter got all her shots on schedule. Stats say nothing of the kind of nonsense which you probably picked up from one of the fake "vaccination information" anti-vax sites. Kids are dying in 2013 because of anti-vax insanity. Woo-woo fake medicine, magical thinking, religious fanaticism, are all part of the push by a terrifyingly large part of the human population to go back to the dark ages where you were very lucky to make it past your 5th birthday.

Check these websites for some real scientifically verified information on these topics and maybe save your own life, the lives of your children, or the lives of people you or they may come into contact with.


http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/inde...-efficacy/
http://www.quackwatch.com/
http://edgydoc.com/

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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04-03-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 12:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 11:57 AM)I and I Wrote:  And these deaths occurred in what kind of living conditions and health oversight?

Please don't be so stupid to lump third world measles deaths to laughingly mean that it was solely the measles that shortened the lives of poverty stricken third world.
I see, the deaths of children outside of the U.S. don't count. Consider

Nearly half of the cases in the U.S. resulted in hospitalization for supportive care, thereby lowering the risk of complications or death. The worldwide statistics show that the disease is deadly.
Even if you are cynical enough to think that only developed-world deaths count, the fact is that Measles kills in the UK, Canada and the US. Vaccination neither kills, nor causes deafness of blindness. Measles does all three. Refusing measles vaccination is, IMHO, criminal negligence toward your children and toward everyone with whom they come into contact.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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04-03-2013, 01:07 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 12:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  Here are some links to more useful information on this and related topics -- from real medical doctors and medical researchers who actually took the time and trouble to learn a lot about what they are talking about:
(04-03-2013 12:09 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/inde...-efficacy/
http://www.quackwatch.com/
http://edgydoc.com/

Are you going to get the flu shot next year?
Yes. I'm not one of those crazy anti-vaxers!

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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04-03-2013, 01:11 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
Have there been any investigations into possible involvement by providers of alternative medicine in "astroturfing" some of the anti-vax propaganda? Some of the things described in earlier posts smell of possible orchestration.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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04-03-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
I have personally dealt with a nasty rare kind of Guillain-Barre for the last 9 years, which you can (but not solely. I most likely got it from a stomach infection) get from getting vaccines. It's a 1 in a million chance, but getting a vaccine can have negative consequences, and getting yearly shots to avoid a simple case of the flu should in my oppinion be avoided unless you're old and/or have a bad health.

Not getting a vaccine against polio etc. is retarded though. Police state or not, those vaccinations should be forced upon everyone.
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04-03-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 02:44 PM)Jakel Wrote:  I have personally dealt with a nasty rare kind of Guillain-Barre for the last 9 years, which you can (but not solely. I most likely got it from a stomach infection) get from getting vaccines. It's a 1 in a million chance, but getting a vaccine can have negative consequences, and getting yearly shots to avoid a simple case of the flu should in my oppinion be avoided unless you're old and/or have a bad health.

Not getting a vaccine against polio etc. is retarded though. Police state or not, those vaccinations should be forced upon everyone.


Well, GBS is pretty rare and the number who might have gotten it because of a vaccination is rarer still.

The big problem with your view is "simple case of the flu". It's influenza and it kills people. And it kills more people than get GBS.

A common thread I see is that anti-vaxers downplay the seriousness of the diseases and overplay the risks of vaccinations.
This is just terribly mistaken risk assessment.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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