Woo is woo, religious or not.
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04-03-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 01:11 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Have there been any investigations into possible involvement by providers of alternative medicine in "astroturfing" some of the anti-vax propaganda? Some of the things described in earlier posts smell of possible orchestration.
There was a tiny problem with the doctor in charge of the research papers that spawned all of this anti-vaccine nonsense. He was found to have falsified his research and findings, which they revoked his medical license for and discredited his published works over.

But I'm sure conspiracy peeps are gonna' conspire. It's the N.W.O. putting the truth down, man! Drinking Beverage

Drinking Beverage Enjoy your daily dose of syrup! And coffee. Don't forget the coffee.
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04-03-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
I'm with Jakel on this one. Not a fan of flu vaccines, unless it is for kids and old/weak people. Too many different strains and variables at play, not to mention that I prefer to mess with my immune system as little as possible (esp. in light of the fact that my mother was recently diagnosed with a serious autoimmune disease).

Polio, TB vaccines and the rest? They should be obligatory. No child should have to be exposed to the risk of one of those, simply because their parents are too stupid to have procreated in the first place.

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04-03-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 02:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 02:44 PM)Jakel Wrote:  I have personally dealt with a nasty rare kind of Guillain-Barre for the last 9 years, which you can (but not solely. I most likely got it from a stomach infection) get from getting vaccines. It's a 1 in a million chance, but getting a vaccine can have negative consequences, and getting yearly shots to avoid a simple case of the flu should in my oppinion be avoided unless you're old and/or have a bad health.

Not getting a vaccine against polio etc. is retarded though. Police state or not, those vaccinations should be forced upon everyone.


Well, GBS is pretty rare and the number who might have gotten it because of a vaccination is rarer still.

The big problem with your view is "simple case of the flu". It's influenza and it kills people. And it kills more people than get GBS.

A common thread I see is that anti-vaxers downplay the seriousness of the diseases and overplay the risks of vaccinations.
This is just terribly mistaken risk assessment.
Yeah it is rare. Winning the lottery is more likely than getting the shit I got Dodgy

Yeah influenza kills people. As far as I know, people who die though, are people who are old and/or weak. And as I said, I think those should take the vaccines, since the flu is dangerous for them. But if you're young and healthy, getting the flue isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I spend a week or two in bed each year with the flu. It's not fun, but I rather do that, than expose myself to the unnecessary possibility of getting some really nasty shit. Tried it, didn't like it Sad Won't risk getting something like that again, unless it's an important vaccination.
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04-03-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:07 PM)Jakel Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 02:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, GBS is pretty rare and the number who might have gotten it because of a vaccination is rarer still.

The big problem with your view is "simple case of the flu". It's influenza and it kills people. And it kills more people than get GBS.

A common thread I see is that anti-vaxers downplay the seriousness of the diseases and overplay the risks of vaccinations.
This is just terribly mistaken risk assessment.
Yeah it is rare. Winning the lottery is more likely than getting the shit I got Dodgy

Yeah influenza kills people. As far as I know, people who die though, are people who are old and/or weak. And as I said, I think those should take the vaccines, since the flu is dangerous for them. But if you're young and healthy, getting the flue isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I spend a week or two in bed each year with the flu. It's not fun, but I rather do that, than expose myself to the unnecessary possibility of getting some really nasty shit. Tried it, didn't like it Sad Won't risk getting something like that again, unless it's an important vaccination.


Again, this shows poor risk assessment. Not every strain of influenza is the same.
The strain that killed millions of people in 1918-1919 was particularly deadly to healthy young adults.

Besides suffering the influenza disease itself, there are the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 03:31 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 03:43 PM by Jakel.)
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:07 PM)Jakel Wrote:  Yeah it is rare. Winning the lottery is more likely than getting the shit I got Dodgy

Yeah influenza kills people. As far as I know, people who die though, are people who are old and/or weak. And as I said, I think those should take the vaccines, since the flu is dangerous for them. But if you're young and healthy, getting the flue isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I spend a week or two in bed each year with the flu. It's not fun, but I rather do that, than expose myself to the unnecessary possibility of getting some really nasty shit. Tried it, didn't like it Sad Won't risk getting something like that again, unless it's an important vaccination.


Again, this shows poor risk assessment. Not every strain of influenza is the same.
The strain that killed millions of people in 1918-1919 was particularly deadly to healthy young adults.

Besides suffering the influenza disease itself, there are the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system.
Well my knowledge in this area is pretty limited (that's a fancy way of saying I don't know what I'm talking about Angel ). You could very well be right that it's more likely for a healthy person to die of influenza than to get some autoimmune disease from a vaccine. Do you have any links? I tried a little googling but couldn't really find anything.

Also, media/government seems to go batshit crazy every time there is a epidemic of the flu. If healthy young people around me start dying from some super influenza, I will reevaluate my positionTongue

EDIT: Also how bad is your autoimmune system effected by a vaccine compared to the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system?

EDIT2: Btw, the last time we had a flu epidemic in Denmark, I was under the impression that we ran out of vaccines, so even though some people wanted to get vaccinated, they couldn't (I could be wrong). And as you say yourself, there are different kinds of influenza. And as far as I knows there are many different strains of the flu every season, and it's impossible to be prepared before they hit anyway.
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04-03-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:31 PM)Jakel Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Again, this shows poor risk assessment. Not every strain of influenza is the same.
The strain that killed millions of people in 1918-1919 was particularly deadly to healthy young adults.

Besides suffering the influenza disease itself, there are the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system.
Well my knowledge in this area is pretty limited (that's a fancy way of saying I don't know what I'm talking about Angel ). You could very well be right that it's more likely for a healthy person to die of influenza than to get some autoimmune disease from a vaccine. Do you have any links? I tried a little googling but couldn't really find anything.

Also, media/government seems to go batshit crazy every time there is a epidemic of the flu. If healthy young people around me start dying from some super influenza, I will reevaluate my positionTongue

EDIT: Also how bad is your autoimmune system effected by a vaccine compared to the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system?

Start here.

The influenza virus is particularly adept at mutating. Each season's flu is different, hence annual vaccinations.
We don't know what next year's virus has in store for us. Maybe the next one will only infect Calvinists. Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:31 PM)Jakel Wrote:  Well my knowledge in this area is pretty limited (that's a fancy way of saying I don't know what I'm talking about Angel ). You could very well be right that it's more likely for a healthy person to die of influenza than to get some autoimmune disease from a vaccine. Do you have any links? I tried a little googling but couldn't really find anything.

Also, media/government seems to go batshit crazy every time there is a epidemic of the flu. If healthy young people around me start dying from some super influenza, I will reevaluate my positionTongue

EDIT: Also how bad is your autoimmune system effected by a vaccine compared to the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system?

Start here.

The influenza virus is particularly adept at mutating. Each season's flu is different, hence annual vaccinations.
We don't know what next year's virus has in store for us. Maybe the next one will only infect Calvinists. Big Grin
Thanks. Going to bed, I'll check it tomorrow.

Only Calvinists? I had something broader in mind Angel

Repost of edits, in case you did not see them:

EDIT: Also how bad is your autoimmune system effected by a vaccine
compared to the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened
system?



EDIT2: Btw, the last time we had a flu epidemic in Denmark, I was under
the impression that we ran out of vaccines, so even though some people
wanted to get vaccinated, they couldn't (I could be wrong). And as you
say yourself, there are different kinds of influenza. And as far as I
knows there are many different strains of the flu every season, and it's
impossible to be prepared before they hit anyway.
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04-03-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:49 PM)Jakel Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  Start here.

The influenza virus is particularly adept at mutating. Each season's flu is different, hence annual vaccinations.
We don't know what next year's virus has in store for us. Maybe the next one will only infect Calvinists. Big Grin
Thanks. Going to bed, I'll check it tomorrow.

Only Calvinists? I had something broader in mind Angel

I have to get my weekly dig at KC in. Dodgy

Quote:Repost of edits, in case you did not see them:

EDIT: Also how bad is your autoimmune system effected by a vaccine
compared to the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened
system?

There is very little danger to the immune system from vaccines. I don't know why anti-vaxers think there is.

Quote:EDIT2: Btw, the last time we had a flu epidemic in Denmark, I was under
the impression that we ran out of vaccines, so even though some people
wanted to get vaccinated, they couldn't (I could be wrong). And as you
say yourself, there are different kinds of influenza. And as far as I
knows there are many different strains of the flu every season, and it's
impossible to be prepared before they hit anyway.

No, it's not impossible. As soon as a strain appears, it is isolated and work on a vaccine begins. Most influenza vaccines are targeted at multiple strains.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 04:05 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:07 PM)Jakel Wrote:  Yeah it is rare. Winning the lottery is more likely than getting the shit I got Dodgy

Yeah influenza kills people. As far as I know, people who die though, are people who are old and/or weak. And as I said, I think those should take the vaccines, since the flu is dangerous for them. But if you're young and healthy, getting the flue isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I spend a week or two in bed each year with the flu. It's not fun, but I rather do that, than expose myself to the unnecessary possibility of getting some really nasty shit. Tried it, didn't like it Sad Won't risk getting something like that again, unless it's an important vaccination.


Again, this shows poor risk assessment. Not every strain of influenza is the same.
The strain that killed millions of people in 1918-1919 was particularly deadly to healthy young adults.

Besides suffering the influenza disease itself, there are the dangers of secondary infections stemming from a weakened system.

Such as with my wife whose flu progressed into her lungs giving her pneumonia and then into her meninges giving her meningitis.

Why would anyone take a chance on this?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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04-03-2013, 04:08 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
"A number of rheumatoid (Lupus&R.A.)and non rheumatoid autoimmune diseases have been reported to occur following immunization. Multiple sclerosis has been reported to become clinical apparent or be exacerbated following immunization with a variety of vaccines (MS). Myasthenia gravis has been reported to occur and to be exacerbated following immunization with a variety of vaccines (Biron et al., 1988); (Ryniewicz & Badurska, 1977). Guillain-Barre syndrome, an autoimmune demyelinating disease, has been reported to occur following immunization with the recombinant hepatitis B and tetanus vaccines (Herroelen et al., 1991); (Newton & Janati, 1987). Killed vaccines including the streptococcal vaccine have also been reported to induce and exacerbate autoimmune diseases to blood cells including platelets (Kelton, 1981) and red blood cells (Zupanska et al., 1976)."

Also, lupus has been linked to hep B vaccines. I am certainly not against vaccines, not at all, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim that "There is very little danger to the immune system from vaccines."

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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