Woo is woo, religious or not.
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04-03-2013, 04:11 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:31 PM)Jakel Wrote:  EDIT2: Btw, the last time we had a flu epidemic in Denmark, I was under the impression that we ran out of vaccines, so even though some people wanted to get vaccinated, they couldn't (I could be wrong). And as you say yourself, there are different kinds of influenza. And as far as I knows there are many different strains of the flu every season, and it's impossible to be prepared before they hit anyway.

Isn't that evidence for the efficacy if vaccines? Am I confused on what your position is?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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04-03-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 04:08 PM)Vera Wrote:  
"A number of rheumatoid (Lupus&R.A.)and non rheumatoid autoimmune diseases have been reported to occur following immunization. Multiple sclerosis has been reported to become clinical apparent or be exacerbated following immunization with a variety of vaccines (MS). Myasthenia gravis has been reported to occur and to be exacerbated following immunization with a variety of vaccines (Biron et al., 1988); (Ryniewicz & Badurska, 1977). Guillain-Barre syndrome, an autoimmune demyelinating disease, has been reported to occur following immunization with the recombinant hepatitis B and tetanus vaccines (Herroelen et al., 1991); (Newton & Janati, 1987). Killed vaccines including the streptococcal vaccine have also been reported to induce and exacerbate autoimmune diseases to blood cells including platelets (Kelton, 1981) and red blood cells (Zupanska et al., 1976)."

Also, lupus has been linked to hep B vaccines. I am certainly not against vaccines, not at all, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim that "There is very little danger to the immune system from vaccines."
Those are real dangers, my point is that they are rare. And currently unpredictable. It's about risk assessment.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 04:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Those are real dangers, my point is that they are rare. And currently unpredictable. It's about risk assessment.
Fair enough. We seem to be on the same page (which is a pretty scary thought in and of itself Drinking Beverage )

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04-03-2013, 04:34 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 01:07 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 12:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  Here are some links to more useful information on this and related topics -- from real medical doctors and medical researchers who actually took the time and trouble to learn a lot about what they are talking about:
Are you going to get the flu shot next year?
Yes. I'm not one of those crazy anti-vaxers!

So you need a flu shot every year?
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04-03-2013, 04:49 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 04:34 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 01:07 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  Yes. I'm not one of those crazy anti-vaxers!

So you need a flu shot every year?


Yes, a flu shot is required each season since the influenza virus is a fast mutator.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 07:01 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 04:11 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:31 PM)Jakel Wrote:  EDIT2: Btw, the last time we had a flu epidemic in Denmark, I was under the impression that we ran out of vaccines, so even though some people wanted to get vaccinated, they couldn't (I could be wrong). And as you say yourself, there are different kinds of influenza. And as far as I knows there are many different strains of the flu every season, and it's impossible to be prepared before they hit anyway.

Isn't that evidence for the efficacy if vaccines? Am I confused on what your position is?
No it was evidence of the media spreading panic to the population making everybody want a vaccine against a common and very mild case of the flu. I think a few elderly people died that winter, but as I recall it we are talking about very sick people already in the hospital.

I think we are pretty much in the same position. I'm just not an unconditional fan of getting vaccines for the common flu.
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04-03-2013, 08:10 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 04:34 PM)I and I Wrote:  So you need a flu shot every year?


Yes, a flu shot is required each season since the influenza virus is a fast mutator.

What if someone asked the obvious question like. "What the fuck is going on with our immune systems that humans NEED a vaccine for a flu.

Correct, flu viruses are numerous and they can mutate as you said, which makes the vaccine not necessary due to its likelihood of not affecting anything.

If you are afraid of the flu then go in your bomb shelters and stay there.
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04-03-2013, 08:17 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 08:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, a flu shot is required each season since the influenza virus is a fast mutator.

What if someone asked the obvious question like. "What the fuck is going on with our immune systems that humans NEED a vaccine for a flu.
Obvious answer to obvious question: because most humans like to stay healthy and not die, and generally also to not harm those around them.

Some immunizations are for diseases some people can die from (sicker or older people die from the flu). So we don't NEED a vaccine; it just helps us and those around us stay alive and healthy, which is kind of big deal.

I think a lot of the anti vaxxers never really paid attention to average life expectancies in the past, before vaccines, and the reasons these people died young. It wasn't just hard labor, it was disease and infection (which can be helped by modern medicine). Hell, look at the Native Americans when Europeans brought diseases to North America.
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04-03-2013, 08:31 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 08:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  What if someone asked the obvious question like. "What the fuck is going on with our immune systems that humans NEED a vaccine for a flu.
Obvious answer to obvious question: because most humans like to stay healthy and not die, and generally also to not harm those around them.

Some immunizations are for diseases some people can die from (sicker or older people die from the flu). So we don't NEED a vaccine; it just helps us and those around us stay alive and healthy, which is kind of big deal.

I think a lot of the anti vaxxers never really paid attention to average life expectancies in the past, before vaccines, and the reasons these people died young. It wasn't just hard labor, it was disease and infection (which can be helped by modern medicine). Hell, look at the Native Americans when Europeans brought diseases to North America.

How many people have you known in your lifetime that has had the flu?

How many of these people ever came anywhere near death or died from the flu?

Have you ever had the flu, if so, how did you make it out alive?
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04-03-2013, 08:33 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
Too bad it only immunizes against one flu that they THINK might be the most common for the year. Not super helpful. I'll pass.
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