Woo is woo, religious or not.
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04-03-2013, 08:39 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 08:31 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  Obvious answer to obvious question: because most humans like to stay healthy and not die, and generally also to not harm those around them.

Some immunizations are for diseases some people can die from (sicker or older people die from the flu). So we don't NEED a vaccine; it just helps us and those around us stay alive and healthy, which is kind of big deal.

I think a lot of the anti vaxxers never really paid attention to average life expectancies in the past, before vaccines, and the reasons these people died young. It wasn't just hard labor, it was disease and infection (which can be helped by modern medicine). Hell, look at the Native Americans when Europeans brought diseases to North America.

How many people have you known in your lifetime that has had the flu?

How many of these people ever came anywhere near death or died from the flu?

Have you ever had the flu, if so, how did you make it out alive?
I said "some diseases," not specifically the flu. I have come close to death from it, though, and so have some older relatives of mine, but due to other complications. I was hospitalized for it just this year, in fact. I also said "healthy," which means not being sick, not just "not being close to death."

And anyway, I am saying that some immunizations give you better odds of staying healthy. I usually don't get a flu shot, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna say they're all useless. Not to mention that you can carry some diseases without exhibiting symptoms and you can make other people sick. Is polio vaccine useless? I bet people who got crippled from it in the past wouldn't have thought so.

Quote:Too bad it only immunizes against one flu that they THINK might be the most common for the year. Not super helpful. I'll pass.
Yep, but it's always a gamble with flu shots. I got the shot this year (I usually don't) and got the flu anyway. But I'm not bitching about it, because I knew it wasn't 100% effective.
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04-03-2013, 09:49 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 08:31 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  Obvious answer to obvious question: because most humans like to stay healthy and not die, and generally also to not harm those around them.

Some immunizations are for diseases some people can die from (sicker or older people die from the flu). So we don't NEED a vaccine; it just helps us and those around us stay alive and healthy, which is kind of big deal.

I think a lot of the anti vaxxers never really paid attention to average life expectancies in the past, before vaccines, and the reasons these people died young. It wasn't just hard labor, it was disease and infection (which can be helped by modern medicine). Hell, look at the Native Americans when Europeans brought diseases to North America.

How many people have you known in your lifetime that has had the flu?

How many of these people ever came anywhere near death or died from the flu?

Have you ever had the flu, if so, how did you make it out alive?

Ever been in a car accident? How did you make it out alive? Seat belt? Pffffft, those things only increase survival rate by 60%. Don't need no friggin seat belts!

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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04-03-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
I and I, ever heard of flu epidemics of the early twentieth century ? Thousands died. Flu wasn't always the nice tame little spend-two-weeks-sniffling thing you seem to think it is, and even now, things like SARS virus etc show that flu can still be deadly. Even if the vaccine just prevents thousands of people from being mildly ill, it's economic value is huge, because those people can still go to work, don't have to feel shitty etc.
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05-03-2013, 02:44 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
Well I thought about it Chas, and you could very well be right. But I still think that the points made here (from both sides) are pretty vague, and that the list of pro's and con's of getting yearly vaccines is more complicated. Do you know if any specific studies have been made in this area? Would be interesting to see some actual numbers.
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05-03-2013, 05:33 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(05-03-2013 02:44 AM)Jakel Wrote:  Well I thought about it Chas, and you could very well be right. But I still think that the points made here (from both sides) are pretty vague, and that the list of pro's and con's of getting yearly vaccines is more complicated. Do you know if any specific studies have been made in this area? Would be interesting to see some actual numbers.


Sorry, studies showing what? Vaccine effectiveness? Influenza mortality rates?

My apologies, I have sort of lost track of this discussion.

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05-03-2013, 07:11 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(05-03-2013 05:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 02:44 AM)Jakel Wrote:  Well I thought about it Chas, and you could very well be right. But I still think that the points made here (from both sides) are pretty vague, and that the list of pro's and con's of getting yearly vaccines is more complicated. Do you know if any specific studies have been made in this area? Would be interesting to see some actual numbers.
Sorry, studies showing what? Vaccine effectiveness? Influenza mortality rates?

My apologies, I have sort of lost track of this discussion.
Sorry. Influenza mortality rates in different age groups.

Also when I say "common flu" I dont mean something like SARS as I think someone mentioned earlier.
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05-03-2013, 07:37 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 08:31 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  Obvious answer to obvious question: because most humans like to stay healthy and not die, and generally also to not harm those around them.

Some immunizations are for diseases some people can die from (sicker or older people die from the flu). So we don't NEED a vaccine; it just helps us and those around us stay alive and healthy, which is kind of big deal.

I think a lot of the anti vaxxers never really paid attention to average life expectancies in the past, before vaccines, and the reasons these people died young. It wasn't just hard labor, it was disease and infection (which can be helped by modern medicine). Hell, look at the Native Americans when Europeans brought diseases to North America.

How many people have you known in your lifetime that has had the flu?

How many of these people ever came anywhere near death or died from the flu?

Have you ever had the flu, if so, how did you make it out alive?
That's kind of like filling a glass of water from the ocean, seeing no whales in the glass, and then claim that there are no whales in the ocean.
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06-03-2013, 12:09 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 04:34 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 01:07 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  Yes. I'm not one of those crazy anti-vaxers!

So you need a flu shot every year?
Yes. Every year the surface proteins on the most common circulating flu virus change. You still might catch a slightly different strain and the vaccine won't help you, but if you go out at all during flu season, you have an almost 100% chance of catching it if no-one is vaccinated. The more people who get the flu shot, the better chance everyone -- vaccinated or not -- has of avoiding it. There was an article in NewScientist magazine a while back suggesting that we might soon have a "permanent" flu vaccine which targets some part of the virus which is common to most if not all strains and is something that the virus can't change without becoming unable to spread, so once that becomes available, I'll definitely get that. I have a doctor (and apparently a lot of health care professionals now know this trick) who keeps talking to me while he sets up the shot and then sticks it in my arm while I'm thinking of something to say for my part of the conversation. That way, I don't even notice the needle going in. Attention blindness is a great anaesthetic.

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[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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06-03-2013, 12:13 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 03:07 PM)Jakel Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 02:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, GBS is pretty rare and the number who might have gotten it because of a vaccination is rarer still.

The big problem with your view is "simple case of the flu". It's influenza and it kills people. And it kills more people than get GBS.

A common thread I see is that anti-vaxers downplay the seriousness of the diseases and overplay the risks of vaccinations.
This is just terribly mistaken risk assessment.
Yeah it is rare. Winning the lottery is more likely than getting the shit I got Dodgy

Yeah influenza kills people. As far as I know, people who die though, are people who are old and/or weak. And as I said, I think those should take the vaccines, since the flu is dangerous for them. But if you're young and healthy, getting the flue isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I spend a week or two in bed each year with the flu. It's not fun, but I rather do that, than expose myself to the unnecessary possibility of getting some really nasty shit. Tried it, didn't like it Sad Won't risk getting something like that again, unless it's an important vaccination.
So you're ok with killing your grandma as long as it saves you 20s of inconvenience every year?

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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06-03-2013, 01:03 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(06-03-2013 12:13 AM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 03:07 PM)Jakel Wrote:  Yeah it is rare. Winning the lottery is more likely than getting the shit I got Dodgy

Yeah influenza kills people. As far as I know, people who die though, are people who are old and/or weak. And as I said, I think those should take the vaccines, since the flu is dangerous for them. But if you're young and healthy, getting the flue isn't that big of a deal. Hell, I spend a week or two in bed each year with the flu. It's not fun, but I rather do that, than expose myself to the unnecessary possibility of getting some really nasty shit. Tried it, didn't like it Sad Won't risk getting something like that again, unless it's an important vaccination.
So you're ok with killing your grandma as long as it saves you 20s of inconvenience every year?
I get your point, I'm just not convinced that the yearly flu vaccines are as effective as you think they are. But thanks for implying I don't care about my grandmother, that's nice of you.

Also what do you mean by "saves you 20s of inconvenience every year"?
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