Woo is woo, religious or not.
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07-03-2013, 05:40 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
I love to watch pretend atheists believe everything they are told without thinking critically about it. Atheism by itself is not radical in and of itself. You guys are creaming your panties over the flu which is rarely ever close to deadly, and you guys are taking all the hype about it and swallowing while looking up at big daddy government smiling. Seriously what do you guys not believe in? So far religion is the only thing I have seen by you guys that is not believed in.
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07-03-2013, 11:26 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(07-03-2013 05:40 PM)I and I Wrote:  I love to watch pretend atheists believe everything they are told without thinking critically about it. Atheism by itself is not radical in and of itself. You guys are creaming your panties over the flu which is rarely ever close to deadly, and you guys are taking all the hype about it and swallowing while looking up at big daddy government smiling. Seriously what do you guys not believe in? So far religion is the only thing I have seen by you guys that is not believed in.


You are incredibly ignorant. -> Flu mortality

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-03-2013, 11:48 PM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(07-03-2013 05:40 PM)I and I Wrote:  I love to watch pretend atheists believe everything they are told without thinking critically about it. Atheism by itself is not radical in and of itself. You guys are creaming your panties over the flu which is rarely ever close to deadly, and you guys are taking all the hype about it and swallowing while looking up at big daddy government smiling. Seriously what do you guys not believe in? So far religion is the only thing I have seen by you guys that is not believed in.
Ooooohhhh... the GOVERNMENT is out to get us!!!! Why didn't I see it before ??? !!! And IandI will lead us to the promised land full of... no flu vaccines. I'll pass thanks.
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08-03-2013, 12:31 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(06-03-2013 01:03 AM)Jakel Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 12:13 AM)ufo42 Wrote:  So you're ok with killing your grandma as long as it saves you 20s of inconvenience every year?
I get your point, I'm just not convinced that the yearly flu vaccines are as effective as you think they are. But thanks for implying I don't care about my grandmother, that's nice of you.

Also what do you mean by "saves you 20s of inconvenience every year"?
You're welcome. I hope it shocked some sense into you. 20 seconds (s is short for seconds for anyone who has ever taken a post-secondary science class) of inconvenience vs doing something to protect any people around you who for whatever reason can't be vaccinated from catching a potentially deadly disease from you.... and as a side-benefit, reducing your chance of spending a week or 6 coughing and feeling lousy with headaches, muscle aches, and fever. The flu vaccine varies in effectiveness from 60 to 80% depending on what is happening with the current year's influenza viruses. It is by no means perfect, but doing nothing is a lot worse. You don't have to be convinced of anything to do the right thing. You just have to trust that people who spent 8+ years and piled up massive student loans slogging through university and grad school classes just might know a bit more about the topics they've studied than Jenny McCarthy or that venal bastard in England who faked studies showing a connection between autism and the MMR vaccine for fun and profit... Ex-Doctor Wakefield.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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08-03-2013, 12:51 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 01:09 AM by ufo42.)
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(07-03-2013 11:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:40 PM)I and I Wrote:  I love to watch pretend atheists believe everything they are told without thinking critically about it. Atheism by itself is not radical in and of itself. You guys are creaming your panties over the flu which is rarely ever close to deadly, and you guys are taking all the hype about it and swallowing while looking up at big daddy government smiling. Seriously what do you guys not believe in? So far religion is the only thing I have seen by you guys that is not believed in.
Ooooohhhh... the GOVERNMENT is out to get us!!!! Why didn't I see it before ??? !!! And IandI will lead us to the promised land full of... no flu vaccines. I'll pass thanks.
Exactly, Mdog! IandI is the moron in this case. I know the choice between big government and big quack is a tough one, but at least theoretically, Big Government can be voted out if it gets too incompetent, but for some reason Big Quack gets a pass and gets away with selling bullshit at high prices to gullible people who think that Dr. Google has all the answers while real doctors who passed real, difficult, medical courses, exams, and practicums are out to "get them".
It is a hell of a lot easier to hire some "Search Engine Optimizer" scumbag to make sure your quackery shows up at the top of the Google searches than to get a medical degree. What are the anti-vax quacks selling? Books and homeopathic "remedies". They don't mind killing a few million kids in the process as long as they get their royalties. While it is undeniable that the seasonal flu is rarely deadly, getting a flu shot is much much more rarely a problem. If you're the one who dies of pneumonia started by a flu infection (or your granny is), that one death is pretty significant for you.

Also,until the current year's seasonal flu epidemic gets underway, there is no way of knowing how deadly it is going to be. The 1918 flu epidemic killed just under 5% of the population of the world. That's fairly deadly. It is unlikely that this will be repeated because we have much better ways of dealing with pneumonia these days, and it was pneumonia which killed most of the flu victims, but still, if something similar happened today, absent an effective vaccine, what is 5% of 7 billion? 350 million? That's more than the entire population of the US.

IandI, while being moronic on the vaccination issue, is correct about atheism. All it is, is a lack of belief in god. Hell, less than 400 years ago in England, atheists were people who didn't believe in the accuser's particular god. If you were a Catholic, Anglicans were atheists as far as you were concerned and vice versa. These days, the definition has been broadened to a a lack of belief in any god, but it doesn't mean that you can't believe in ghosts, chiroquackery, or homeopathy or vaccine conspiracy theories. There are anti-vaccine atheists lurking out there as well. Just because they are right about there being no god, doesn't automatically mean they are right about other issues.

We, who support the vast volume of scientific studies which show that vaccination is one of the greatest public health advances since the invention of sewage systems, are not swallowing anything. It is the anti-vax fanatics who are swallowing the lies of Big Quack which is selling snake oil at the expense of the health and lives of countless victims the world over.

I was just listening to the 21 Aug 2012 TheThinkingAtheist podcast. A caller referred to the purveyors of woo-woo "medicine" as the
Happy Hippy Wholistic Herbal Healing Horseshit Industry. Definitely a candidate for enshrining in a T-shirt! Smile

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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08-03-2013, 01:15 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
I'm not afraid of dying from the flu, but I'd rather not get sick either. Getting sick is a few days of torment, followed by a week of crappy workouts... No thanks.

Plus, my grandmother ended up dying from complications after getting the flu a few years ago. She was relatively healthy beforehand, and went on daily hikes. So when people like I and I make such ignorant claims, it really irks me. You may not die from the flu, but the old lady you pass it to might... And you could have decreased the likelihood of you getting it in the first place!
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08-03-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(08-03-2013 12:31 AM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 01:03 AM)Jakel Wrote:  I get your point, I'm just not convinced that the yearly flu vaccines are as effective as you think they are. But thanks for implying I don't care about my grandmother, that's nice of you.

Also what do you mean by "saves you 20s of inconvenience every year"?
You're welcome. I hope it shocked some sense into you. 20 seconds (s is short for seconds for anyone who has ever taken a post-secondary science class) of inconvenience vs doing something to protect any people around you who for whatever reason can't be vaccinated from catching a potentially deadly disease from you.... and as a side-benefit, reducing your chance of spending a week or 6 coughing and feeling lousy with headaches, muscle aches, and fever. The flu vaccine varies in effectiveness from 60 to 80% depending on what is happening with the current year's influenza viruses. It is by no means perfect, but doing nothing is a lot worse. You don't have to be convinced of anything to do the right thing. You just have to trust that people who spent 8+ years and piled up massive student loans slogging through university and grad school classes just might know a bit more about the topics they've studied than Jenny McCarthy or that venal bastard in England who faked studies showing a connection between autism and the MMR vaccine for fun and profit... Ex-Doctor Wakefield.
Seconds was my guess too, I just wanted to be sure. For some reason I thought you meant some kind of currency...

Dude, have you even read my earlier posts? I said Chas was probably right after he made his points. I'm trying to get some info on the mortality rates on the flu for healthy adults, since they are apparently way higher then I thought. Also I'm not against vaccinations, as I have earlier said. And even though I'm skeptical about the effectiveness about yearly flu vaccinations contra the consequences of getting different kinds of autoimmune diseases etc., I'm not against them.

I don't have a massive student loan (Yeah Denmark!), and I have only studied math, probability theory and statistics for 5 years in university. But you need to trust ME, when I say that doctors (at least in Denmark) don't know shit about statistical inference. I lived with quite a few medical students, they don't learn much in that area. So excuse me for being a little skeptical.

So if you don't have a link to what I asked, don't bother ranting on. We are on the same fucking side idiot...
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08-03-2013, 10:31 AM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
Has anyone hear eve known anyone that has died from the flu?

Has anyone here known anyone that has known anyone that has died of the flu?

Fucking exactly. Fucking nobody here has done either of those things.

I love how me not believing the flu is serious enough for a vaccine is somehow lumped in with being against all vaccines.


Oh and besides the religious shit, is there anything the mainstream media can say that you guys will even at least question? Anything?
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08-03-2013, 11:35 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(28-07-2012 03:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  OK, this is only the last third of the discussion.
Her last statement just floored me, so I went nuclear.Drinking Beverage


AntiVaxer: When we were kids, herd immunity for chicken pox, rubella, measles, etc. was created by us actually getting the illness. I completely disagree that it shouldn't be an individual's decision. Every should be able to be in charge of their own health decisions, in consultation with health professionals, if they wish. The CDC may say that the vaccinations are effective to some degree, but do they actually have studies that compare vaccinated to unvaccinated or we just to assume that they do? If the studies exist, my next question would be who did them? I don't expect perfection in anything, but I'd like to know how vaccinations compare to mother nature. Then the risk factors can be considered and a better decision made for each individual.

ME: Again, you are confusing preventing the disease by immunization with getting the disease with all of its risks. We didn't have herd immunity as children, we contracted the diseases.

AntiVaxer: Our immune system is stronger by actually having some of these diseases than by being vaccinated against them. Another attempt to fool mother nature that I don't believe is necessarily the best way to go. If vaccinations are an effective prevention against these diseases and a child has been vaccinated, than they ought to have a better chance of not getting the disease than those not vaccinated. As you point out, nothing is 100%. Everyone should be able to pick their own odds.

ME: Children who are immunized are less likely to get the disease; this is the point. The only way to have immunity (other than genetically-endowed) is by exposure. Vaccination is by exposure to an attenuated form of the microbe - a far less risky proposition than exposure to the full-strength pathogen.
The effectiveness of vaccinations is stated in the percentage of people who acquire immunity, not in some "quality of immunity". A vaccine that is 90% effective is effective for 90% of the people who get it, and not effective for 10%. You just don't know beforehand who is who.
Exposing someone to a life- or health-threatening pathogen instead of a vaccination is ignorant at best. I believe it is foolhardy and immoral.AntiVaxer: So where are the controlled studies proving that those who are vaccinated are healthier than those who remain unvaccinated? That's the ultimate goal, not just never getting sick. Should flu viruses also be required for everyone? Even if they were, it would take a police state to accomplish it. No, thanks.

ME: The rate of disease incidence in a population that has been vaccinated is vastly lower than in an un-vaccinated population. This has been clearly proven and not disputable.

AntiVaxer: The immunity from the attenuated form of the microbe is weaker than that received by the full-strength pathogen. That's why boosters are often needed. We don't yet know enough about how the immune system works and develops to be able to say categorically that immunizations are the best way to reduce deaths, complications and boost overall health. I believe it would be immoral and foolhardy to require everyone to be immunized against whatever illnesses the government in cooperation with the pharmaceutical companies deem necessary. A very slippery slope!

ME: Think about what you are saying. Would you prefer to be exposed to the polio virus or to a polio vaccine and boosters? You would risk paralysis and death? Your position makes no logical sense.

AntiVaxer: It makes sense to me that it should be my decision. The polio vaccine started the whole idea of people trying to manipulate the immune system. Not everyone who got polio was paralyzed or died. Like we've said, nothing in life is 100% or eve...See More

ME: No, AV, your 'facts' aren't facts. It was Edward Jenner in 1796 who inoculated an 8 year old boy with pus from a cowpox victim. Vaccination has a long history in medical science and has been repeatedly validated.
Your anit-vax stance appears ideological because it is entirely unscientific, ahistorical, and illogical.

AntiVaxer: OK, then it's ideological and I have the right to that belief.

ME: Others who believe that ideology supersedes science, reason, and evidence include the Westboro Baptists, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Taliban, ...

--------------------

Surprisingly, she hasn't responded.Consider
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Don't get me fired up on this topic! As a mom with a child on the spectrum with autism it comes up FREQUENTLY. The problem is most people who argue against immunizations are too young to remember why it's done.

Recently we had an outbreak of whooping cough. Seriously. There is no reason any child or adult should get it and there's certainly no reason that people should die from it and yet they do. We are ripe for a serious problem and people cleave to these silly beliefs based on nonsense. They're based on hearsay...like that twat Jenny McCarthy...


Need to seriously take a zen break...


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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08-03-2013, 06:15 PM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(08-03-2013 10:31 AM)I and I Wrote:  Has anyone hear eve known anyone that has died from the flu?

Has anyone here known anyone that has known anyone that has died of the flu?

Fucking exactly. Fucking nobody here has done either of those things.

I love how me not believing the flu is serious enough for a vaccine is somehow lumped in with being against all vaccines.


Oh and besides the religious shit, is there anything the mainstream media can say that you guys will even at least question? Anything?

Do you know any Inuit Eskimos? Omg! They must be a hoax perpetrated by Big Alaska!

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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