Woo is woo, religious or not.
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04-03-2013, 07:27 AM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(03-03-2013 10:11 AM)amyb Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 04:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So many false assumptions AV makes.
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content...cination#4
The most egregious fallacy is that the personal decision does NOT effect others directly. A room full of un-immunized kids is very very dangerous, as was proven in many recent Polio outbreaks. I actually think parents who refuse to immunize, should either be required to home-school, or sign an acceptance of liability form, where they agree to share the costs, for the damage they create. Quarantine is an accepted practice.
Varicella, for example, if one actually gets Chicken Pox, can have many consequences, later, including Shingles, many years later, as well as other newly emerging consequences.
Tell AV to point to the studies, they reference, as generalities. The "fooling Mother Nature nature" comment is very odd. So what is "natural" ? Does AV use antibiotics ? That's "fooling" mother nature. It's the typical double decker universe. There is only one deck. AV has a right to stand on their beliefs, but does not have a right to expose others to disease.
Yes, all of this. These people deny they've actually benefited from science (childhood vaccines, antibiotics, other medicines) and go on and on about what is natural.

Slightly off topic: You know what's natural? Pain and death. I have a fucking bad abscessed tooth right now and am in agony, but I'm on antibiotics and see the dentist tomorrow morning. You know what would happen hundreds of years ago if I had the same tooth problem? I'd probably fucking die. It was not an uncommon way to die in the past, you can't fight the infection and it spreads and gets into your heart and shit. But taking antibiotics is "fooling mother nature" so I probably shouldn't, right? Because being "natural" is so much more fucking important than staying alive. I guess. Well, fuck mother nature anyway. I'd have been dead a hundred times over if it weren't for modern medicine, due to various health problems. I fucking hate these arguments about what it natural and healthy and shit.

That, and it's irresponsible for AVs to endanger others due to their own stupidity, and they act like their stupidity doesn't harm people, when in fact their stupidity can kill people. As for babies getting vaccines without their consent, well, you can't get consent from a baby, they don't understand the issue yet. And it's irresponsible to wait until they do understand, in case they end up fucking dead from the disease first.

When it comes to modern medicine humans correctly proceed with the survival mentality in preserving and increasing human life. Then modern science tells at the other side of its mouth that humans are "bad" for wanting to be the top dog of life on earth with a climate change brow beating. I love it
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04-03-2013, 09:35 AM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
I can't find solid data on the history of smallpox vaccinations. Both my brother (born 1960) and sister (born 1959) have the scars. I distinctly recall my sister showing hers off many times. I (born 1970) have none. This seems to gel with some of the historical information I found.

So, those scars, while definitely a mark of heroism, are also the mark of a generation.

Chas, in the other 2/3 of your conversation with AV did you ever mention the Black Plague? Or is the plague even relevant to that conversation?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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04-03-2013, 11:21 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(03-03-2013 09:35 AM)I and I Wrote:  What is an antivaxer? Are they against all vaccines or just some? Is the opposite of that someone that is for all vaccines of all kinds?
Anti-vax-ers are deceitful propagandists opposed to all vaccines. They have websites which look like they are providing information about vaccines, but contain nothing but propaganda based on hoax science and pre-scientific ideas of magic based "medicine" like the 4 humours. Some promote homeopathy as an alternative to "unnatural" vaccines. Recently, the "Australian Vaccination Network" was ordered by the consumer protection arm of the government to change their name after a court found that their tactics were deceptive and dangerous to public health. A petition similar to mine convinced one large Australian bookseller to stop selling that pro-Measles book.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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04-03-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 09:35 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  I can't find solid data on the history of smallpox vaccinations. Both my brother (born 1960) and sister (born 1959) have the scars. I distinctly recall my sister showing hers off many times. I (born 1970) have none. This seems to gel with some of the historical information I found.

So, those scars, while definitely a mark of heroism, are also the mark of a generation.

Chas, in the other 2/3 of your conversation with AV did you ever mention the Black Plague? Or is the plague even relevant to that conversation?
Not discussed. The conversation was centered on childhood vaccinations.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 11:32 AM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 11:21 AM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 09:35 AM)I and I Wrote:  What is an antivaxer? Are they against all vaccines or just some? Is the opposite of that someone that is for all vaccines of all kinds?
Anti-vax-ers are deceitful propagandists opposed to all vaccines. They have websites which look like they are providing information about vaccines, but contain nothing but propaganda based on hoax science and pre-scientific ideas of magic based "medicine" like the 4 humours. Some promote homeopathy as an alternative to "unnatural" vaccines. Recently, the "Australian Vaccination Network" was ordered by the consumer protection arm of the government to change their name after a court found that their tactics were deceptive and dangerous to public health. A petition similar to mine convinced one large Australian bookseller to stop selling that pro-Measles book.


So if I stated that the flu vaccine is a waste of money and time because there is no cure for the flu and having the vaccine doesn't decrease ones chances of catching the flu, would that mean I am a crazy antivaxer?
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04-03-2013, 11:35 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 07:27 AM)I and I Wrote:  When it comes to modern medicine humans correctly proceed with the survival mentality in preserving and increasing human life. Then modern science tells at the other side of its mouth that humans are "bad" for wanting to be the top dog of life on earth with a climate change brow beating. I love it
Science isn't saying humans are "bad"... is is saying that if we don't figure out other ways of providing energy for our current civilization, and reduce our carbon-dioxide output drastically, our planet will undergo such rapid climate change that it will threaten our survival as a species. Every year, the picture of what is happening to the climate is getting a little clearer and none of the news is good. There are already foretastes of what is to come. Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the findings of thousands of people who actually are studying the issue is not helping. Killer heatwaves in Europe and Austrailia, Hurricane Sandy, drought in the US midwest and Africa... these are real phenomena which the people who know the most about what is going on with the climate are telling us is likely due to increased levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Global Warming denial is even more dangerous than anti-vax dogmatism and is based on the same mind-set: Celebrities and politicians are smarter than scientists and know more about every topic without ever having taken any courses in it than the researchers who have devoted their lives to a studing it. Just as having gorgeous boobs doesn't make Jenny McCarthy an epidemiologist, so having a big mouth and leaky eyes doesn't make John Boener an expert on climate science.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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04-03-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 11:32 AM)I and I Wrote:  So if I stated that the flu vaccine is a waste of money and time because there is no cure for the flu and having the vaccine doesn't decrease ones chances of catching the flu, would that mean I am a crazy antivaxer?
yes. Do you have a degree in epidemiology? Do you have the faintest clue as to what you're talking about? I think not. The people with real scientific credentials over at Science Based Medicine say that flu vaccines are 60% effective (not great, but better than nothing, and definitely worth the money considering the lives and the amount of time and money lost due to flu each year).

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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04-03-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 11:32 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 11:21 AM)ufo42 Wrote:  Anti-vax-ers are deceitful propagandists opposed to all vaccines. They have websites which look like they are providing information about vaccines, but contain nothing but propaganda based on hoax science and pre-scientific ideas of magic based "medicine" like the 4 humours. Some promote homeopathy as an alternative to "unnatural" vaccines. Recently, the "Australian Vaccination Network" was ordered by the consumer protection arm of the government to change their name after a court found that their tactics were deceptive and dangerous to public health. A petition similar to mine convinced one large Australian bookseller to stop selling that pro-Measles book.


So if I stated that the flu vaccine is a waste of money and time because there is no cure for the flu and having the vaccine doesn't decrease ones chances of catching the flu, would that mean I am a crazy antivaxer?
Yes, because your statements are crazy.

The flu vaccine prevents flu, it doesn't cure it. Vaccines are preventatives, not treatments.

The flu vaccine is generally 60% to 90% effective at preventing influenza, varying year to year.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 11:49 AM
Woo is woo, religious or not.
Speaking of measles in particular, why is a vaccine necessary for this?

When did the decline in measles begin? Stats say that measles wasn't deadly and was on the decline before the vaccine was even given on a massive scale.

Are vaccinated people threatened when a non vaxer is around them?
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04-03-2013, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 11:53 AM by I and I.)
Woo is woo, religious or not.
(04-03-2013 11:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 11:32 AM)I and I Wrote:  So if I stated that the flu vaccine is a waste of money and time because there is no cure for the flu and having the vaccine doesn't decrease ones chances of catching the flu, would that mean I am a crazy antivaxer?
Yes, because your statements are crazy.

The flu vaccine prevents flu, it doesn't cure it. Vaccines are preventatives, not treatments.

The flu vaccine is generally 60% to 90% effective at preventing influenza, varying year to year.

Evidence for your flu prevention claims?

Oh yeah, does having the flu vaccine decrease ones chances of getting the flu? Yes or no
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