Worker Owned Factories
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04-04-2013, 12:03 PM
Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 11:48 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 11:33 AM)I and I Wrote:  No, in communism the workers put in place a political/legal/economic structure to protect their worker owned factories and themselves from capitalist influence.

Stock options are not a safe investment nor are they a way for workers to run and own their business in the way that is talked about in the article.

I should have separated those 2 statements. I was making a larger point in that the best way to motivate anyone is to give them a share in the net results. Practical Communism is totalitarian in nature and does nothing to "protect workers from capitalist influence" see China, theoretical communism wouldn't require the workers to own anything as everything already belongs to the collective.

Have you compared the average Chinese worker vs American worker and compared the benefits? What if I told you that you would get paid 8 dollars an hour, but get full medical benefits for free and get housing mostly or completely paid for and you get to go to college for free? Would you be as upset about the low wage?
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04-04-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:03 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 11:48 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I should have separated those 2 statements. I was making a larger point in that the best way to motivate anyone is to give them a share in the net results. Practical Communism is totalitarian in nature and does nothing to "protect workers from capitalist influence" see China, theoretical communism wouldn't require the workers to own anything as everything already belongs to the collective.

Have you compared the average Chinese worker vs American worker and compared the benefits? What if I told you that you would get paid 8 dollars an hour, but get full medical benefits for free and get housing mostly or completely paid for and you get to go to college for free? Would you be as upset about the low wage?

Well the suicide rate seems to belie the benefits.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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04-04-2013, 12:22 PM
Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 12:03 PM)I and I Wrote:  Have you compared the average Chinese worker vs American worker and compared the benefits? What if I told you that you would get paid 8 dollars an hour, but get full medical benefits for free and get housing mostly or completely paid for and you get to go to college for free? Would you be as upset about the low wage?

Well the suicide rate seems to belie the benefits.

Suicide rate in Chinese controlled factories? Where and when?
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04-04-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:22 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 12:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well the suicide rate seems to belie the benefits.

Suicide rate in Chinese controlled factories? Where and when?

The most recent government data provides statistics more inline with external estimations. According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, China's suicide rate is 22.23 people out of every 100,000.[3] This rate places the country among the countries with the highest suicide per capita in the world.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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04-04-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 12:22 PM)I and I Wrote:  Suicide rate in Chinese controlled factories? Where and when?

The most recent government data provides statistics more inline with external estimations. According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, China's suicide rate is 22.23 people out of every 100,000.[3] This rate places the country among the countries with the highest suicide per capita in the world.

"among the highest" you mean like not even in the top 5?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...icide_rate

It would be ridiculous to assume that all suicides in a country are due to it's economic and political structure.
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04-04-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The most recent government data provides statistics more inline with external estimations. According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, China's suicide rate is 22.23 people out of every 100,000.[3] This rate places the country among the countries with the highest suicide per capita in the world.

China's SR is high. Japan slightly lower and South Korea much higher. Can we stay positive? The thread brought positive energy at the beginning.

See wiki

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04-04-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 10:58 AM)I and I Wrote:  Why shouldn't this exist all over the world? Why shouldn't human beings be able to control, run and benefit from their own labor instead of having a middle man in private ownership of corporations to siphon off profits?


These business should exist everywhere there are people who desire them. Likewise, the man who doesn't want the stress of owning a business should be allowed to rent the necessary tools for his trade from another man, should he desire that arrangement.

Communisim approaches free trade from the a priori position that all wage labor is slavery, which is patently false.

Marx's argument is that if a man earns five dollars per widget and the factory owners sells the widget for ten dollars, the laborer has been cheated out of five dollars. Let alone the fact that this assumption ignores the cost of the equipment, the building, the maintenance of same, etc., it also ignores the fact that without the capitalist, the widget maker would not be able to make his widgets or, he wouldn't be able to make as many. With no factory, the laborer might make five widgets per day at ten dollars each for a total of fifty dollars. But with the factory, the laborer can produce fifty widgets per day at five dollars each for a total of $250.00.

I understand that the above is purely hypothetical but the reality is that the industrial revolution and the assembly line did indeed increase the productivity and the wealth of the common laborer more than any other innovation man as ever made. Before that time, there were no guaranteed salaries, no pensions and no way for the commoner to achieve gainful employment with minimal skills. Moreover, the industrial revolution made it no longer necessary that children work in order for the family to survive. If you think child labor is a problem today, just think about the days when children had no choice but to work 12 hour days on the family farm just so that they could eat.

Communism sounds great on paper but put into practice, it actually achieves the exact opposite of its intended goals and, it does so far more quickly than any other form of political rule.

But then, such is to be expected from a man who never worked an honest day in his life. A man who, while railing against the predations of the capitalist, bore a bastard child with his maid which he then refused to support. Not to mention, two of Marx's three children committed suicide.

This is the man whose inexperienced, hypocritical musings you have chosen to base your world view on.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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04-04-2013, 12:52 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 10:58 AM)I and I Wrote:  Why shouldn't this exist all over the world? Why shouldn't human beings be able to control, run and benefit from their own labor instead of having a middle man in private ownership of corporations to siphon off profits?


These business should exist everywhere there are people who desire them. Likewise, the man who doesn't want the stress of owning a business should be allowed to rent the necessary tools for his trade from another man, should he desire that arrangement.

Communisim approaches free trade from the a priori position that all wage labor is slavery, which is patently false.

Marx's argument is that if a man earns five dollars per widget and the factory owners sells the widget for ten dollars, the laborer has been cheated out of five dollars. Let alone the fact that this assumption ignores the cost of the equipment, the building, the maintenance of same, etc., it also ignores the fact that without the capitalist, the widget maker would not be able to make his widgets or, he wouldn't be able to make as many. With no factory, the laborer might make five widgets per day at ten dollars each for a total of fifty dollars. But with the factory, the laborer can produce fifty widgets per day at five dollars each for a total of $250.00.

I understand that the above is purely hypothetical but the reality is that the industrial revolution and the assembly line did indeed increase the productivity and the wealth of the common laborer more than any other innovation man as ever made. Before that time, there were no guaranteed salaries, no pensions and no way for the commoner to achieve gainful employment with minimal skills. Moreover, the industrial revolution made it no longer necessary that children work in order for the family to survive. If you think child labor is a problem today, just think about the days when children had no choice but to work 12 hour days on the family farm just so that they could eat.

Communism sounds great on paper but put into practice, it actually achieves the exact opposite of its intended goals and, it does so far more quickly than any other form of political rule.

But then, such is to be expected from a man who never worked an honest day in his life. A man who, while railing against the predations of the capitalist, bore a bastard child with his maid which he then refused to support. Not to mention, two of Marx's three children committed suicide.

This is the man whose inexperienced, hypocritical musings you have chosen to base your world view on.

the "sounds good on paper" argument. a classic. One could say the same thing about capitalism, sounds good on paper but in reality only a few countries (the ones that have a military to take other peoples shit) are successful. Ask an african how successful capitalism is.

ooh, marx had a child out of wedlock. well fuck that guy then Rolleyes are you the church lady?

your understanding of marxist economic theories isn't up to par with what he actually wrote. The cost of machines and tools were talked about quite extensively in his economic writings. The machines actually increase the potential of human labor and increase the profit that comes from human labor, this human labor is not paid in full to the value of what it produces hence the profit. This profit is after and above the costs of machines and running a business. you act as if all the costs of a corporation is put into the actual labor/machine costs.
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04-04-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
(04-04-2013 12:52 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 12:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  These business should exist everywhere there are people who desire them. Likewise, the man who doesn't want the stress of owning a business should be allowed to rent the necessary tools for his trade from another man, should he desire that arrangement.

Communisim approaches free trade from the a priori position that all wage labor is slavery, which is patently false.

Marx's argument is that if a man earns five dollars per widget and the factory owners sells the widget for ten dollars, the laborer has been cheated out of five dollars. Let alone the fact that this assumption ignores the cost of the equipment, the building, the maintenance of same, etc., it also ignores the fact that without the capitalist, the widget maker would not be able to make his widgets or, he wouldn't be able to make as many. With no factory, the laborer might make five widgets per day at ten dollars each for a total of fifty dollars. But with the factory, the laborer can produce fifty widgets per day at five dollars each for a total of $250.00.

I understand that the above is purely hypothetical but the reality is that the industrial revolution and the assembly line did indeed increase the productivity and the wealth of the common laborer more than any other innovation man as ever made. Before that time, there were no guaranteed salaries, no pensions and no way for the commoner to achieve gainful employment with minimal skills. Moreover, the industrial revolution made it no longer necessary that children work in order for the family to survive. If you think child labor is a problem today, just think about the days when children had no choice but to work 12 hour days on the family farm just so that they could eat.

Communism sounds great on paper but put into practice, it actually achieves the exact opposite of its intended goals and, it does so far more quickly than any other form of political rule.

But then, such is to be expected from a man who never worked an honest day in his life. A man who, while railing against the predations of the capitalist, bore a bastard child with his maid which he then refused to support. Not to mention, two of Marx's three children committed suicide.

This is the man whose inexperienced, hypocritical musings you have chosen to base your world view on.

the "sounds good on paper" argument. a classic. One could say the same thing about capitalism, sounds good on paper but in reality only a few countries (the ones that have a military to take other peoples shit) are successful. Ask an african how successful capitalism is.

ooh, marx had a child out of wedlock. well fuck that guy then Rolleyes are you the church lady?

your understanding of marxist economic theories isn't up to par with what he actually wrote. The cost of machines and tools were talked about quite extensively in his economic writings. The machines actually increase the potential of human labor and increase the profit that comes from human labor, this human labor is not paid in full to the value of what it produces hence the profit. This profit is after and above the costs of machines and running a business. you act as if all the costs of a corporation is put into the actual labor/machine costs.

You can say anything you like, but history bares the evidence that communism fails miserably. Also, capitalism is not a system of political rule, it is a method of trade. To compare communism to capitalism is to compare apples to oranges. All voluntary trade is capitalistic, even when it occurs in a communist state. Likewise, all involuntary trade is not capitalistic. Thus, if a business owner uses coercion to secure labor, he is not a capitalist, he is a criminal.

The point about Marx's bastard child has nothing to do with how I feel about the act, it serves to demonstrate that he did not practice the behavior he would have others practice. This is hypocrisy... the subject matter is irrelevant.

"this human labor is not paid in full to the value of what it produces hence the profit."

Exactly. And the laborer seeks to profit from his job as well. No one wants to be paid exactly the amount his job costs him to do. The laborer seeks to profit from his job so that he can save away that profit in case of an emergency. The same goes for profit in a business. What Marx has done is argue that profit for the business owner is evil, while profit for the employee is just. That argument if patently absurd, bigoted and fundamentally flawed in every conceivable manner. What he (and you) are saying is that some people should be allowed to profit while others should not. This oppressive, dictatorial attitude toward trade is exactly the thing that Marx purports communism eliminates while all it actually does is switch roles between the oppressed and the oppressor.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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04-04-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Worker Owned Factories
I would love to see these types of businesses spring up everywhere. The tire factory in Mexico is an even better example than the one I remember seeing a while back. I can't remember but it was like a wholesale bakery where all the business's profits were split evenly amongst all. The "ceo" made the same as a guy standing at the conveyer belts. I just wonder if it would be possible to see such setups outside the...manufacturing?...industry. The tires, and the bread come off assembly lines; so "factory-sized" is as big as a collective could get? I might not detest Wal-Mart so much if I saw one of Sam's grandkids behind the customer service desk handing out large checks to guys from lawn-n-garden, but that's probably cause I'm a muli-Billionaire hater.

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