Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
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27-06-2015, 11:03 AM
Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
Call of the Wild has requested a boxing ring debate against me, the request originated from the thread Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist.

Thread link http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid804308


Call of the Wild I will let you choose the topic, after confirmation from you for the boxing ring challenge.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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27-06-2015, 07:50 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(27-06-2015 11:03 AM)Worom Wrote:  Call of the Wild has requested a boxing ring debate against me, the request originated from the thread Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist.

Thread link http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid804308


Call of the Wild I will let you choose the topic, after confirmation from you for the boxing ring challenge.

Thank you. I would like the topic to be "Who wrote the Gospels, and When were the Gospels written". I will make a positive case for the Gospels being written by two disciples (Matthew/John) and friends of the disciples (Mark) and later apostle Paul (Luke).

Or at best, the Gospels were written from the PERSPECTIVE of those mentioned above. So either they wrote it, or they saw to it that it was written.

And that all Gospels were written in the first century C.E...before 70 C.E.

And I'd also like to include the book of Acts, and 1 Corinthians and Galatians in there as well.

Cool?
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27-06-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(27-06-2015 07:50 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 11:03 AM)Worom Wrote:  Call of the Wild has requested a boxing ring debate against me, the request originated from the thread Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist.

Thread link http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid804308


Call of the Wild I will let you choose the topic, after confirmation from you for the boxing ring challenge.

Thank you. I would like the topic to be "Who wrote the Gospels, and When were the Gospels written". I will make a positive case for the Gospels being written by two disciples (Matthew/John) and friends of the disciples (Mark) and later apostle Paul (Luke).

Or at best, the Gospels were written from the PERSPECTIVE of those mentioned above. So either they wrote it, or they saw to it that it was written.

And that all Gospels were written in the first century C.E...before 70 C.E.

And I'd also like to include the book of Acts, and 1 Corinthians and Galatians in there as well.

Cool?

Sounds good to me, I will make the counter argument that the gospels were likely written after 70CE since you specified that as the date, and that the authorship of the gospels were not by the original disciples (Matthew and John), and as far as the friends of the disciples for the other two gospels (Mark and Luke) I will argue that this is hearsay at best assuming evidence of them being friends of the disciples exists.

You can include Acts, 1 Corinthians, and Galatians if you would like if you want to use them to try and support your arguments.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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28-06-2015, 01:19 AM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
Challenge accepted.
From this post on all posts from non-combatants with be removed.


[Image: 8fdc5343c0fcc010d8a9f265b388913d.jpg]

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28-06-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
The first thing I would like to do is get an idea of our backgrounds.


I'm an Agnostic Atheist currently 27 years old, I grew up as a non-denominal fundamentalist Christian that believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible up until April of 2015
I'm currently single and work for an Insurance company as a Senior Business Analyst.
Education wise I took two years of college courses, but did not complete my degree as my financial situation didn't allow it, I attended two different schools for those two years, The first School was Bethel University where my general studies classes included a class on the Life and teaching of Jesus focusing on the non-canon as well as some of the canon texts, this class lasted for an entire semester. In my second semester my classes included the history and origins of the New Testament, this class spent three months going into how the New Testament was formed and where the source materials came from, most of that time being spent on the gnostic gospels Mark, Matthew, and Luke. The Second school I attended was Arizona State University where my classes focused more on math and computer science.

One question I would like to ask, is what translation(s) of the Bible do you use?

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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28-06-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
My background: I am a Christian apologist, 30 years old. Grew up as a Seventh Day Adventist (SDA), a denomination of which my family is very much still involved with. I have since abandoned the SDA faith and now consider myself a non-denominational Christian apologist, and I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, although I am open-minded enough to be persuaded as to which parts of the Bible should be taken literally, or otherwise.

I work for A-DOT (Arizona Department of Transportation), and I am currently in school looking to obtain my BSB, graduating early 2016.

(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  I'm an Agnostic Atheist currently 27 years old, I grew up as a non-denominal fundamentalist Christian that believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible up until April of 2015

Aw crap. Well, we (the Kingdom of the Living God) would love for you to come back home Thumbsup

(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  I'm currently single and work for an Insurance company as a Senior Business Analyst.

How much do you make annually?

(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  Education wise I took two years of college courses, but did not complete my degree as my financial situation didn't allow it, I attended two different schools for those two years, The first School was Bethel University where my general studies classes included a class on the Life and teaching of Jesus focusing on the non-canon as well as some of the canon texts, this class lasted for an entire semester.

Sounds like some good stuff there. I'd like to eventually get a PH.D in philosophy and also earn a Masters degree in New Testament studies. Of course, these are all long term goals.

(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  In my second semester my classes included the history and origins of the New Testament, this class spent three months going into how the New Testament was formed and where the source materials came from, most of that time being spent on the gnostic gospels Mark, Matthew, and Luke. The Second school I attended was Arizona State University where my classes focused more on math and computer science.

Are you in AZ right now?

(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  One question I would like to ask, is what translation(s) of the Bible do you use?

I currently have an NIV study Bible.
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28-06-2015, 06:05 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(28-06-2015 02:47 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  My background: I am a Christian apologist, 30 years old. Grew up as a Seventh Day Adventist (SDA), a denomination of which my family is very much still involved with. I have since abandoned the SDA faith and now consider myself a non-denominational Christian apologist, and I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, although I am open-minded enough to be persuaded as to which parts of the Bible should be taken literally, or otherwise.

I work for A-DOT (Arizona Department of Transportation), and I am currently in school looking to obtain my BSB, graduating early 2016.

(28-06-2015 02:47 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  I'm an Agnostic Atheist currently 27 years old, I grew up as a non-denominal fundamentalist Christian that believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible up until April of 2015


Aw crap. Well, we (the Kingdom of the Living God) would love for you to come back home Thumbsup

No thank you, I find the evidence for the kingdom of the living god to be rather how shall we say lacking Tongue

(28-06-2015 02:47 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  I'm currently single and work for an Insurance company as a Senior Business Analyst.

How much do you make annually?

This question is a little overly personal for an exact answer, but I will say I make a comfortable living, higher than the AZ median wage Smile

(28-06-2015 02:47 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  Education wise I took two years of college courses, but did not complete my degree as my financial situation didn't allow it, I attended two different schools for those two years, The first School was Bethel University where my general studies classes included a class on the Life and teaching of Jesus focusing on the non-canon as well as some of the canon texts, this class lasted for an entire semester.

Sounds like some good stuff there. I'd like to eventually get a PH.D in philosophy and also earn a Masters degree in New Testament studies. Of course, these are all long term goals.

It's good to have a goal, don't really see an over abundance of modern day philosophers.

(28-06-2015 02:47 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  In my second semester my classes included the history and origins of the New Testament, this class spent three months going into how the New Testament was formed and where the source materials came from, most of that time being spent on the gnostic gospels Mark, Matthew, and Luke. The Second school I attended was Arizona State University where my classes focused more on math and computer science.

Are you in AZ right now?

Yes, although I plan on moving in a few years, the heat here is driving me bonkers.

(28-06-2015 02:47 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 09:10 AM)Worom Wrote:  One question I would like to ask, is what translation(s) of the Bible do you use?


I currently have an NIV study Bible.

Hmm the NIV Bible is an 50/50 direct translation and interpolated translation if memory serves me correctly.

If needed, I will be using the King James version of the Bible for quotation as it's a direct translation.

Now that we are properly introduced, I will let you present your arguments first, on the who wrote the gospels and when, since you are trying to present the positive case.


Unless of course you have more questions, please feel free to ask Smile

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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28-06-2015, 07:06 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(28-06-2015 06:05 PM)Worom Wrote:  No thank you, I find the evidence for the kingdom of the living god to be rather how shall we say lacking Tongue

Can't win'em all, I guess.

(28-06-2015 06:05 PM)Worom Wrote:  This question is a little overly personal for an exact answer, but I will say I make a comfortable living, higher than the AZ median wage Smile

Yeah, ok..um...how much?

(28-06-2015 06:05 PM)Worom Wrote:  Yes, although I plan on moving in a few years, the heat here is driving me bonkers.

Yeah, the heat makes it not worth living here. I would rather deal with snowy winters than scorching summers.

(28-06-2015 06:05 PM)Worom Wrote:  Hmm the NIV Bible is an 50/50 direct translation and interpolated translation if memory serves me correctly.

Jesus is Lord and Savior and salvation comes through him...all Biblical translations or versions that I know of state this point, so everything else is peanuts.

(28-06-2015 06:05 PM)Worom Wrote:  Now that we are properly introduced, I will let you present your arguments first, on the who wrote the gospels and when, since you are trying to present the positive case.

Very well, lets begin.

(28-06-2015 06:05 PM)Worom Wrote:  Unless of course you have more questions, please feel free to ask Smile

Worddd.
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30-06-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
Well its been two days since, Call of the Wild agreed and was supposed to post arguments first but so far all we have is Crickets Crickets

I will therefore post my initial argument that the Gospels were not written before 70 CE and that the authors were not by the disciples or by the friends of them which is hearsay.

Now the first thing that I will point out is that the way the Gospels are presented in the Bible are actually not in chronological order.

The earliest chronologically speaking is Mark, looking at the linguistics of the book, mark has two authors one writing around 65 CE at earliest estimates and another writing around 80 to 90 CE. The evidence of this is that passages about the resurrection of Jesus were not part of the original book and were added in later by the second author near the close of the 1st century. Whoever the authors of Mark were they compiled stories and theological ideas at the time and wrote them into the Book of Mark. Even Biblical scholars view mark as nothing more than a collection of legends, rumors, and a little bit of history. Furthermore given the errors that were made in terms of geography and jewish customs and the explaining of jewish law indicate that whoever wrote mark was not a palestinian jew. Another thing of note with Mark is that verses 16:9 through 20 were a latter addition to the book, and were not present in the earliest available copies.

Now moving on to Matthew the second gospel chronologically speaking was penned between 70 CE and 100 CE and the author is also unknown, but was likely an early Christian. This gospel also borrows very heavily from Mark, this gospel also starts with a genealogy that doesn't match what is found in Luke, then it moves on to a telling of the birth of Jesus and how he was baptized, this section seems likely to be the part of the euhemerization process of Jesus, in which the author is altering the story away from a mythical figure that has no human form, to one that does by writing the figure into history with a background and with historical figures that actually existed. Another thing of note is that the book of Matthew is only one to mention the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt to fulfill a prophecy. Which is suggesting that the author a future editor added it in on purposes in order to try and increase the legitimacy of the story. Again also could be considered as part of the Euhemerization process.

Next in line we have Luke written around 85 to 100 CE which borrowed from Mark and Matthew and is a composite document, along with some theological differences from the actual author of Luke who is also unknown to history.

Lastly we have the book of John written around 100 CE which compared to the other three gospels goes flying off the wall in what it says, this is the only gospel that jesus is equated to god as going from god to flesh. The way John is written as well is a stringing together of incidents in order to prove a theological point, this would not be an eyewitness account by any means, and the writing style also suggests that the author wasn't using any contemporaries at all.

One thing I would like to add of note, is that the earliest pieces we have of these documents is around 150 CE and are a best fragments, when we do have whole copies available they have significant differences compared to the books that are presented today.

These are my Initial arguments, depending on the response by Call of the Wild I will increase the strength of these arguments.


Works Cited:

Presentation: Richard Carrier – Did Jesus Even Exist
Stephen D. Moore' Turning Mark Inside Out.
J.D. Crossan, Who Killed Jesus (1995)
Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus, Crossian (1998)
Five Gospels, Funk, 1993
http://rationalwiki.org/ for pointing out sources.
Farrer hypothesis from my own education in a Christian School.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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02-07-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
Bear with me. Been busy. Will have my post by Sunday.
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