Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
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23-08-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(14-08-2015 03:16 PM)Worom Wrote:  The gospels are the claim, you can't use them as evidence

So we shouldn't use the evidence in King Tuts tomb that that is his tomb?? Do you see the logic here??

(14-08-2015 02:11 PM)Worom Wrote:  Except I said that all the events happened at the exact same time, so you did nothing to resolve my example.

I was having a difficult time following it, so I interpreted as best I could.

(14-08-2015 02:11 PM)Worom Wrote:  Then reconcile it, keep in mind I said all these events happened at the same time

Please repeat the analogy...I am too lazy to go back and fetch it.

(14-08-2015 02:11 PM)Worom Wrote:  I'd call bullshit right away, sounds like a hallucination to me. Heck i'd probably have you seek psychiatric help or ask you if took drugs or something.

I don't see how my story is any more bullshit than you claiming "see that inanimate matter over there..well, in a million years, it will COME TO LIFE, and begin to talk...think...see...and laugh".

Maybe you are the one that needs psychiatric help or has taken some drugs Big Grin.

(14-08-2015 02:11 PM)Worom Wrote:  You underestimate the power of hallucinations, they can seem very very real.

Sure they can seem real. But if I have an hallucination about my grandmother appearing to me after she died, if I am truly hallucinating, her deceased body should still lay in her grave, correct? Correct. The hallucination theory doesn't explain the empty tomb.

And if your answer is they stole the body, AND hallucinated, that would be so far fetched and it is no wonder that not even the most extreme skeptics never held such a viewpoint.

(14-08-2015 02:11 PM)Worom Wrote:  As for the empty tomb the bible makes that claim, now where is your proof?

Yeah, the Bible makes the claim...but I have a hard time believing that Christianity would be based on the physical Resurrection of a dead man if the dead man's body remained in the tomb all the while people were going around saying that the man physically rose from the dead.

Makes no sense.
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23-08-2015, 04:56 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2015 10:04 PM by Worom.)
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
You know Call of The Wild, after two months of this back and forth, I have come to a conclusion about you. You accuse me of not accepting anything that contradicts my world view, yet no matter what I post no matter what expert books, documents, sources I refer to, you refuse to even consider them and use your own personal feelings to attempt to contradict them. You have yet to present any evidence on the veracity of the Bible outside of apologetic sources, you reference documents that say almost nothing about Jesus, or are highly suspect at being authentic such as Josephus, and you use massive hearsay accounts that would never be accepted as evidence for your claims either by the historical, scientific, or court systems. You also use Wikipedia heavily in your some of your arguments as well. And I admit I used it as well as much as I hate doing so but frankly the amount of time i'd already put into this debate by the point I started doing so was extreme.

You present the same arguments that Ken Ham and the Hovinds have presented time and time again that I have watched dozens of hours of debates on and watched those arguments be utterly destroyed by people with by far more knowledge than myself. You claim that 27,000 corrections, as I put it, over a few centuries are nothing more than scribal errors and are minor, this shows you didn't even bother to look at anything beyond what I posted. If you had actually looked at what I presented you would have found that these minor corrections you claim are total outright changes to the Bible that can be easily researched and read by yourself, you didn't even acknowledge or even attempt to do anything with the fact there are two books in the 1600 year old Bible that are not present in today's Bible.

You claim I haven't presented evidence to multiple different topics when I have linked out to experts in their fields showing the evidence and thier conclusions, yet you want me to essentially spend a lifetime replicating what those experts did in order to debate you on an internet forum, where you would and I can almost guarantee would dismiss my arguments even If I were an expert in the field.

You continue to use arguments from incredulity and do nothing to resolve your ignorance, I have posted repeatedly to courses that would have at least taught you the basics of what evolution is and how it works, and how there is no difference between this supposed micro and macro evolution that you creationists are so fond of. Here is a simple question, What happens when you have a small number of changes over a long period of time? You end up with a large amount of changes. A modern day example in progress is potentially the Chihuahua without human intervention they could only breed with other chihuahuas, once it gets to the point were even with human intervention the breeding fails then we will have a new species because they can only reproduce with others of thier species, with a canine common ancestor.

You can't even be bothered to look back at your own and my arguments that would take all of a few minutes in order to keep track of points that we have both made, that is just sheer laziness as I have spent countless hours trying to ensure what I presented was based on scientific evidence which you continually dismiss because you don't understand it. That is the very definition of willful ignorance. Are you so afraid that myself and all the other scientists that have studied the topics that we have discussed might actually be right that you can't be bothered to even read them? I read your apologetic sources and showed you how easily it was to refute them based on scientific evidence but you ignored it or used pathetic arguments that you made up to try and counter them.

Unless you are at least willing to read what is in the links and think about them and take time to actually learn the topics you are trying to refute, then there is no hope and your mind is lost forever to superstition and events that based on everything we know can't happen.

The thing is if you were able to actually refute evolution or many of the other scientific claims I made, go ahead write a paper and submit it for peer review and collect your Nobel prize and enjoy fame and fortune. But given how many apologists there are and how none have ever replaced a scientific explanation with god did it then you have no chance of this actually happening.

You are also so willing to throw away everything that would have been taught as part of a standard high school curriculum in order to protect your faith, that it is quite sad really. In my time in high school we spent a great deal of time on history that you are so willing to dismiss my arguments for history. And these historical events that you keep trying to use to argue against me with, are perversions of what history really is, all the events have massive evidence outside of single book that don't contradict each other, while at the same time they are not identical. Your trying to use one book to prove the same book.

It is clear to me you fall into the same category as Ken Ham when he was asked the question during the debate between him and Bill Nye on what would change your mind and he said nothing.

You know what would change my mind? It's simple really, it's called evidence, actual scientific evidence. If something is proven through the scientific method no matter how much I disagree with or dislike it, I would still accept it since it has been tested, proven, and verified repeatedly.

With all that said, unless you post real evidence, and by real evidence I mean scientific papers, and books from people respected in thier scientific or historical fields, outside of apologetic sources, theological sources, Tacticus, and Josephus, otherwise I'm quite frankly done wasting my time on you and your ignorance and lack of willingness to even consider true contradictory evidence.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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25-08-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(23-08-2015 04:56 PM)Worom Wrote:  You know Call of The Wild, after two months of this back and forth, I have come to a conclusion about you. You accuse me of not accepting anything that contradicts my world view, yet no matter what I post no matter what expert books, documents, sources I refer to, you refuse to even consider them and use your own personal feelings to attempt to contradict them. You have yet to present any evidence on the veracity of the Bible outside of apologetic sources, you reference documents that say almost nothing about Jesus, or are highly suspect at being authentic such as Josephus, and you use massive hearsay accounts that would never be accepted as evidence for your claims either by the historical, scientific, or court systems. You also use Wikipedia heavily in your some of your arguments as well. And I admit I used it as well as much as I hate doing so but frankly the amount of time i'd already put into this debate by the point I started doing so was extreme.

You present the same arguments that Ken Ham and the Hovinds have presented time and time again that I have watched dozens of hours of debates on and watched those arguments be utterly destroyed by people with by far more knowledge than myself. You claim that 27,000 corrections, as I put it, over a few centuries are nothing more than scribal errors and are minor, this shows you didn't even bother to look at anything beyond what I posted. If you had actually looked at what I presented you would have found that these minor corrections you claim are total outright changes to the Bible that can be easily researched and read by yourself, you didn't even acknowledge or even attempt to do anything with the fact there are two books in the 1600 year old Bible that are not present in today's Bible.

You claim I haven't presented evidence to multiple different topics when I have linked out to experts in their fields showing the evidence and thier conclusions, yet you want me to essentially spend a lifetime replicating what those experts did in order to debate you on an internet forum, where you would and I can almost guarantee would dismiss my arguments even If I were an expert in the field.

You continue to use arguments from incredulity and do nothing to resolve your ignorance, I have posted repeatedly to courses that would have at least taught you the basics of what evolution is and how it works, and how there is no difference between this supposed micro and macro evolution that you creationists are so fond of. Here is a simple question, What happens when you have a small number of changes over a long period of time? You end up with a large amount of changes. A modern day example in progress is potentially the Chihuahua without human intervention they could only breed with other chihuahuas, once it gets to the point were even with human intervention the breeding fails then we will have a new species because they can only reproduce with others of thier species, with a canine common ancestor.

You can't even be bothered to look back at your own and my arguments that would take all of a few minutes in order to keep track of points that we have both made, that is just sheer laziness as I have spent countless hours trying to ensure what I presented was based on scientific evidence which you continually dismiss because you don't understand it. That is the very definition of willful ignorance. Are you so afraid that myself and all the other scientists that have studied the topics that we have discussed might actually be right that you can't be bothered to even read them? I read your apologetic sources and showed you how easily it was to refute them based on scientific evidence but you ignored it or used pathetic arguments that you made up to try and counter them.

Unless you are at least willing to read what is in the links and think about them and take time to actually learn the topics you are trying to refute, then there is no hope and your mind is lost forever to superstition and events that based on everything we know can't happen.

The thing is if you were able to actually refute evolution or many of the other scientific claims I made, go ahead write a paper and submit it for peer review and collect your Nobel prize and enjoy fame and fortune. But given how many apologists there are and how none have ever replaced a scientific explanation with god did it then you have no chance of this actually happening.

You are also so willing to throw away everything that would have been taught as part of a standard high school curriculum in order to protect your faith, that it is quite sad really. In my time in high school we spent a great deal of time on history that you are so willing to dismiss my arguments for history. And these historical events that you keep trying to use to argue against me with, are perversions of what history really is, all the events have massive evidence outside of single book that don't contradict each other, while at the same time they are not identical. Your trying to use one book to prove the same book.

It is clear to me you fall into the same category as Ken Ham when he was asked the question during the debate between him and Bill Nye on what would change your mind and he said nothing.

You know what would change my mind? It's simple really, it's called evidence, actual scientific evidence. If something is proven through the scientific method no matter how much I disagree with or dislike it, I would still accept it since it has been tested, proven, and verified repeatedly.

With all that said, unless you post real evidence, and by real evidence I mean scientific papers, and books from people respected in thier scientific or historical fields, outside of apologetic sources, theological sources, Tacticus, and Josephus, otherwise I'm quite frankly done wasting my time on you and your ignorance and lack of willingness to even consider true contradictory evidence.

By the grace of God, my intellectual skills are unparallel. Another one bites the dust.

Moderators, close it Cool
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25-08-2015, 09:54 AM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2015 01:18 PM by Worom.)
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(25-08-2015 09:10 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 04:56 PM)Worom Wrote:  You know Call of The Wild, after two months of this back and forth, I have come to a conclusion about you. You accuse me of not accepting anything that contradicts my world view, yet no matter what I post no matter what expert books, documents, sources I refer to, you refuse to even consider them and use your own personal feelings to attempt to contradict them. You have yet to present any evidence on the veracity of the Bible outside of apologetic sources, you reference documents that say almost nothing about Jesus, or are highly suspect at being authentic such as Josephus, and you use massive hearsay accounts that would never be accepted as evidence for your claims either by the historical, scientific, or court systems. You also use Wikipedia heavily in your some of your arguments as well. And I admit I used it as well as much as I hate doing so but frankly the amount of time i'd already put into this debate by the point I started doing so was extreme.

You present the same arguments that Ken Ham and the Hovinds have presented time and time again that I have watched dozens of hours of debates on and watched those arguments be utterly destroyed by people with by far more knowledge than myself. You claim that 27,000 corrections, as I put it, over a few centuries are nothing more than scribal errors and are minor, this shows you didn't even bother to look at anything beyond what I posted. If you had actually looked at what I presented you would have found that these minor corrections you claim are total outright changes to the Bible that can be easily researched and read by yourself, you didn't even acknowledge or even attempt to do anything with the fact there are two books in the 1600 year old Bible that are not present in today's Bible.

You claim I haven't presented evidence to multiple different topics when I have linked out to experts in their fields showing the evidence and thier conclusions, yet you want me to essentially spend a lifetime replicating what those experts did in order to debate you on an internet forum, where you would and I can almost guarantee would dismiss my arguments even If I were an expert in the field.

You continue to use arguments from incredulity and do nothing to resolve your ignorance, I have posted repeatedly to courses that would have at least taught you the basics of what evolution is and how it works, and how there is no difference between this supposed micro and macro evolution that you creationists are so fond of. Here is a simple question, What happens when you have a small number of changes over a long period of time? You end up with a large amount of changes. A modern day example in progress is potentially the Chihuahua without human intervention they could only breed with other chihuahuas, once it gets to the point were even with human intervention the breeding fails then we will have a new species because they can only reproduce with others of thier species, with a canine common ancestor.

You can't even be bothered to look back at your own and my arguments that would take all of a few minutes in order to keep track of points that we have both made, that is just sheer laziness as I have spent countless hours trying to ensure what I presented was based on scientific evidence which you continually dismiss because you don't understand it. That is the very definition of willful ignorance. Are you so afraid that myself and all the other scientists that have studied the topics that we have discussed might actually be right that you can't be bothered to even read them? I read your apologetic sources and showed you how easily it was to refute them based on scientific evidence but you ignored it or used pathetic arguments that you made up to try and counter them.

Unless you are at least willing to read what is in the links and think about them and take time to actually learn the topics you are trying to refute, then there is no hope and your mind is lost forever to superstition and events that based on everything we know can't happen.

The thing is if you were able to actually refute evolution or many of the other scientific claims I made, go ahead write a paper and submit it for peer review and collect your Nobel prize and enjoy fame and fortune. But given how many apologists there are and how none have ever replaced a scientific explanation with god did it then you have no chance of this actually happening.

You are also so willing to throw away everything that would have been taught as part of a standard high school curriculum in order to protect your faith, that it is quite sad really. In my time in high school we spent a great deal of time on history that you are so willing to dismiss my arguments for history. And these historical events that you keep trying to use to argue against me with, are perversions of what history really is, all the events have massive evidence outside of single book that don't contradict each other, while at the same time they are not identical. Your trying to use one book to prove the same book.

It is clear to me you fall into the same category as Ken Ham when he was asked the question during the debate between him and Bill Nye on what would change your mind and he said nothing.

You know what would change my mind? It's simple really, it's called evidence, actual scientific evidence. If something is proven through the scientific method no matter how much I disagree with or dislike it, I would still accept it since it has been tested, proven, and verified repeatedly.

With all that said, unless you post real evidence, and by real evidence I mean scientific papers, and books from people respected in thier scientific or historical fields, outside of apologetic sources, theological sources, Tacticus, and Josephus, otherwise I'm quite frankly done wasting my time on you and your ignorance and lack of willingness to even consider true contradictory evidence.

By the grace of God, my intellectual skills are unparallel. Another one bites the dust.

Moderators, close it Cool

You didn't win, I told you I wanted you to present arguments based on real evidence based on scientific papers, and/or books from people respected in thier respective fields, outside of apologetic sources, and theological sources. But since you are obviously unwilling to do so, because you just tried to declare yourself the victor and requested the thread closed. Since you have done that then I can't stop the inevitable closure of this debate. But you are hardly the victor, far from it.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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25-08-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(25-08-2015 09:54 AM)Worom Wrote:  You didn't win, I told you I wanted you to present arguments based on real evidence based on scientific papers, and/or books from people respected in thier respective fields, outside of apologetic sources, and theological sources. But since you are obviously unwilling to do so, because you just tried to declare yourself the victor and requested the thread closed. Since you have done that then I can't stop the inevitable closure of this debate. But you are hardly the victor, far from it.

Well, we've exhausted the conversation about as far as it can go. I want to either debate another topic, or have the same debate either via phone, instant message, or video.

Whenever you ready.
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26-08-2015, 11:51 AM
RE: Worom Vs. Call_of_the_Wild
(25-08-2015 02:54 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(25-08-2015 09:54 AM)Worom Wrote:  You didn't win, I told you I wanted you to present arguments based on real evidence based on scientific papers, and/or books from people respected in thier respective fields, outside of apologetic sources, and theological sources. But since you are obviously unwilling to do so, because you just tried to declare yourself the victor and requested the thread closed. Since you have done that then I can't stop the inevitable closure of this debate. But you are hardly the victor, far from it.

Well, we've exhausted the conversation about as far as it can go. I want to either debate another topic, or have the same debate either via phone, instant message, or video.

Whenever you ready.

Hey you were the one refusing to provide actual proof to your claims, and no I'm not going to debate you on any other topic it would be a waste of time and effort, you by your own admission in other threads don't even look at evidence that is provided to you. Even when you request evidence to be presented to you.

You are essentially doing what a 5 year old child does when they don't want to hear something, by sticking thier fingers in thier ears and going la la la la la la I can't hear you.

I would submit that I'm the victor in this debate as Call of the Wild doesn't want to continue the debate under the terms of providing actual evidence to his claims.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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