Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
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06-08-2016, 02:44 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(05-08-2016 09:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  To add to that, I'm not just worried about the harm that she'll do to regular Americans by advocating for trade deals like the TPP, I'm also worried about the damage her hawkish foreign policy will cause in the Middle East and by extension, in Europe (because we are the ones who have to take in the refugees from the wars the US starts over there). Trump and Clinton both have the potential to fuck up the rest of the world big time, such is the power of a US president who is backed by Congress.

Vosur,

This is just a small point, but I have heard Obama saying that Hillary disagrees with him on TPP. I took this as a good sign as many of us here in the UK are not keen on TPP from our end.

D.
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06-08-2016, 04:05 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(05-08-2016 09:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-08-2016 09:04 PM)BnW Wrote:  Define "us". If by "us", you mean middle and working class Americans, I completely disagree that she won't cause us harm and that her policies are fine. The worst part of the Trump campaign is it's taken all the focus of the very harmful policies of Hillary Clinton.

The stone cold reality is that Clinton favors policies that have proven to be very harmful to average Americans. When Trump talks about trade deals and how they are helping a very small group of CEOs and industrialists, he is not wrong. Unfortunately, for every lucid point he actually does manage to make, he counters it with whatever batshit buzzing that is floating around his head. He's an unmitigated disaster as both a candidate and a human being, but that doesn't mean his basic political observations about Clinton and the Democrats and Republicans are wrong. They aren't (and that observation is not intended to be an endorsement of his proposed solutions).

The worst part of Trump's campaign is not all the batshit craziness he's espousing, but how his ridiculous behavior has allowed the political class in this country to further alienate Americans who already feel increasingly marginalized. Over the past 30 years our government, and both parties, have taken overt steps to create a global market for labor where American (and many European) countries can skirt local laws on child labor, worker safety, wage minimums and all the things the labor movement spent over a century fighting for and now have 12 year olds making clothes and TVs and sneakers and iPads for $0.12 a day. It was not that long ago in the US that a man (or woman) with a high school education could get a job that paid a living wage where they could buy a house, raise a family, take a vacation, and even pay for college if their kids wanted more. Now those some people can flip burgers and are begging for enough money in salary to get them off fucking food stamps. And, are told they are "parasites" and "want free stuff" for their efforts. They don't want free stuff. They want to be able to have what past generations had without having to work 18 hours a day. A 30 year old father or mother flipping burgers at Wendy's isn't doing it because they are too proud to do menial labor. That's the fucking essence of menial labor. And, it doesn't matter if we pay them $15/hour because those jobs are going away too thanks to the wonders of automation.

This situation is not an accident. It didn't just happen. We didn't all wake up one day and say "what the fuck? It was all good yesterday". This is the result of years of deliberate policy choices by both Republicans and Democrats to push for policies that increased the profits of corporations under the guise of it's good for all of us. But, it has not been good for all of us. It's been good for just a handful of us. And, it's no longer just blue collar jobs. I see accounting, sourcing, and even legal jobs going to low cost economies.

If you think Hillary Clinton and her policies are somehow not endorsing this status quo, then you have simply not been paying attention. Her policies are extremely harmful. And, the sad reality is that there is probably no one else the Republicans could have trotted out that was going to differ from her materially on this. There were total of two people who were actually talking about these issues and the impacts they are having on the American public. One of them wrote an OpEd in the LA Times today just about begging his supporters to support her. The other is a small handed, lecherous scumbag who suffers from a narcissistic personality disorder and the attention span of a 4 year old who's had 3 Mountain Dews and 2 bags of raw cane sugar. It's not a good situation. But, I flatly reject the statement - and this is not directed at Dom, I just happened to pick her post to respond to - that she is not "harmful". She, and her ilk, are very harmful. If you want to make the argument that she is not MORE harmful than any other candidate the press and the 2 parties would both agree to throw out, that's probably true. But, that's like saying brain cancer isn't more harmful than lung cancer.
To add to that, I'm not just worried about the harm that she'll do to regular Americans by advocating for trade deals like the TPP, I'm also worried about the damage her hawkish foreign policy will cause in the Middle East and by extension, in Europe (because we are the ones who have to take in the refugees from the wars the US starts over there). Trump and Clinton both have the potential to fuck up the rest of the world big time, such is the power of a US president who is backed by Congress.

Woah Vosur I thought you supported Trump, what's happened? Clearly I have missed something along the line.
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06-08-2016, 06:00 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(05-08-2016 07:11 PM)I Am Wrote:  
(05-08-2016 06:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  Clinton isn't going to cause us harm. She may have lied, but she is cool, collected and stable. Her proposed policies are fine, they are neither harmful nor will they throw us back by a century, like a lot of the repubs would. And she won't put god back in the school rooms to brainwash thousands of unwanted kids.

Minor quibble... Clinton is not going to deviate from the harm we already expect from the last 8 years, as set out for us by herself, the current Secretary of State, and the President, and their financier backers. Her policies will not be additionally harmful, presuming we already expect the TPP and the undercutting of labor and wages inherent therein. As an added bonus, her administration and the Democratic Party may (or may not) respect the adopted platform which calls for the diminishing of power for too-big-to-fail banks and the reduction of opportunities for grossly wealthy people to hide assets from domestic taxation.

All the rest, and the implied lack of theistic brainwashing, granted. She's still better than the dude who wants specifics on the nukes he would command, who questions why we don't use them. Carry on.

I would also be curious about the specifics of the nukes we have available. I would want to know why the use of even a single nuke seems to be off the table. I don't even think Clinton truly knows. I know you are going to say that I need to check out the damage nukes did in the past. The tech has changed by a lot. There is less fallout from the more powerful nukes we have now. He might be considering possibly as a last resort to use one. The terrorists want to put their hands on nukes. Why can't we let them witness first hand what these things can do? At least Trump won't be sitting there authorizing drone strikes or even nukes with his cell phone.
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06-08-2016, 06:02 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 02:44 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(05-08-2016 09:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  To add to that, I'm not just worried about the harm that she'll do to regular Americans by advocating for trade deals like the TPP, I'm also worried about the damage her hawkish foreign policy will cause in the Middle East and by extension, in Europe (because we are the ones who have to take in the refugees from the wars the US starts over there). Trump and Clinton both have the potential to fuck up the rest of the world big time, such is the power of a US president who is backed by Congress.

Vosur,

This is just a small point, but I have heard Obama saying that Hillary disagrees with him on TPP. I took this as a good sign as many of us here in the UK are not keen on TPP from our end.

D.

Hillary is saying she does not agree with TPP "in its current form". She is not saying she doesn't agree with it in concept. It's an important distinction. Her past positions on trade agreements is she's been very for them.

My take, and I can't prove this but it's consistent with her record and history, is after the election she'll force a few minor changes but ultimately will be full speed ahead on TPP and and further screwing the American worker. Unless, that ia, Obama gets it signed before he leaves office, which he has stated he wants to do.

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06-08-2016, 06:09 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 02:44 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(05-08-2016 09:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  To add to that, I'm not just worried about the harm that she'll do to regular Americans by advocating for trade deals like the TPP, I'm also worried about the damage her hawkish foreign policy will cause in the Middle East and by extension, in Europe (because we are the ones who have to take in the refugees from the wars the US starts over there). Trump and Clinton both have the potential to fuck up the rest of the world big time, such is the power of a US president who is backed by Congress.

Vosur,

This is just a small point, but I have heard Obama saying that Hillary disagrees with him on TPP. I took this as a good sign as many of us here in the UK are not keen on TPP from our end.

D.
I'll just leave these here:

CNN: 45 times Secretary Clinton pushed the trade bill she now opposes
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politi...w-opposes/

Politifact: Hillary Clinton flip-flops on Trans-Pacific Partnership
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...-partners/

Politico: Clinton friend McAuliffe says Clinton will flip on TPP, then walks it back
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/te...ade-226253

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06-08-2016, 06:16 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 04:05 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(05-08-2016 09:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  To add to that, I'm not just worried about the harm that she'll do to regular Americans by advocating for trade deals like the TPP, I'm also worried about the damage her hawkish foreign policy will cause in the Middle East and by extension, in Europe (because we are the ones who have to take in the refugees from the wars the US starts over there). Trump and Clinton both have the potential to fuck up the rest of the world big time, such is the power of a US president who is backed by Congress.

Woah Vosur I thought you supported Trump, what's happened? Clearly I have missed something along the line.
What gave you that impression? Just because I defend a candidate from dishonest criticism doesn't mean I support them. I've done the same with Clinton in the past even though I despise her.

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06-08-2016, 06:32 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 06:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 04:05 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Woah Vosur I thought you supported Trump, what's happened? Clearly I have missed something along the line.
What gave you that impression? Just because I defend a candidate from dishonest criticism doesn't mean I support them. I've done the same with Clinton in the past even though I despise her.
Well, its just in another thread I seem to recall you saying that you thought trump would be an ok president or something along those lines (I don't have the credit on my phone to do a comprehensive search for what you actually said though. I guess I must have misinterpreted what you meant mate, sorry about that.
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06-08-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 06:32 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 06:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  What gave you that impression? Just because I defend a candidate from dishonest criticism doesn't mean I support them. I've done the same with Clinton in the past even though I despise her.
Well, its just in another thread I seem to recall you saying that you thought trump would be an ok president or something along those lines (I don't have the credit on my phone to do a comprehensive search for what you actually said though. I guess I must have misinterpreted what you meant mate, sorry about that.
No worries, no harm done. Smile

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06-08-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 02:44 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(05-08-2016 09:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  To add to that, I'm not just worried about the harm that she'll do to regular Americans by advocating for trade deals like the TPP, I'm also worried about the damage her hawkish foreign policy will cause in the Middle East and by extension, in Europe (because we are the ones who have to take in the refugees from the wars the US starts over there). Trump and Clinton both have the potential to fuck up the rest of the world big time, such is the power of a US president who is backed by Congress.

Vosur,

This is just a small point, but I have heard Obama saying that Hillary disagrees with him on TPP. I took this as a good sign as many of us here in the UK are not keen on TPP from our end.

D.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall TPP being part of the Bernie/Hillary deal. It was part of what he negotiated before he endorsed her.

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06-08-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(06-08-2016 06:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  I may be wrong, but I seem to recall TPP being part of the Bernie/Hillary deal. It was part of what he negotiated before he endorsed her.

Take that with a grain of salt...the only thing she agreed to was a talking point for her campaign. Time will tell how she will act when it matters. Hopefully she has realized how many people that support her are against it and why, but I'm afraid there's already too much political clout behind it already.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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