Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
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15-10-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(15-10-2016 09:44 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  So, it is perfectly acceptable to lie for political and personal gain?

Probably. Every human being that ever existed has and does.
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15-10-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(15-10-2016 05:31 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I have no candidate with a chance of winning.

Which is a terribly overrated element in the discussions people have about voting.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-10-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
Three middle aged men. Anti-Muslim. Anti-immigrant. Seeking to wake up the country with with a bloodbath on the day after the election. Anyone seen Birdman lately?

Quote:An alleged plot to blow up a Kansas apartment complex filled with Somali immigrants one day after the November elections aimed to create a "bloodbath" to "wake up" the country politically, according to one of three members of a militia group charged with domestic terrorism, federal authorities say.

Authorities said Friday that Curtis Allen and Gavin Wright, both 49 and from Liberal, Kan., and Patrick Eugene Stein, 47, of Wright, Kan., were members of a small, anti-Muslim group called the Crusaders that espoused sovereign citizen, anti-government, anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant extremist beliefs.

They had allegedly been plotting since February to blow up the apartment complex and mosque in Garden City, a meatpacking town in western Kansas. Prosecutors said the thwarted attack was planned for the day after the November elections.

"These individuals had the desire, the means, the capability to carry out this act of domestic terrorism," Eric Jackson, FBI Kansas City special agent in charge, said in announcing the arrests in Wichita.

...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/.../92139212/

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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15-10-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(15-10-2016 09:44 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  So, it is perfectly acceptable to lie for political and personal gain?

Like just about everything, it depends on the context.

How much can you fault JFK, FDR, or Churchill for lying during their brinkmanship under times of crisis? The ability to deceive others isn't a strategic option I'd unilaterally take off the table. Or maybe you think Obama should have mailed Bin Laden an invitation to his own funeral?

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15-10-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(15-10-2016 08:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 07:41 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  Where'd she openly admit that she lies?

They both lie, no doubt about it.

But Hillary tells lies you would expect her to, like most professional politicians in an election. She's writing checks that she either can't or won't cash in exchange for enough support to win the election; mixed in with that are still genuine policy positions and things we can be reasonably certain about given her history.

Trump on the other hand is an entirely different creature. He doesn't lie just for political or personal advantage, he just a often appears to lie over the smallest and most inconsequential shit. His lying isn't so much a scheming power move, as often as it appears to be habitual; he has an internal narrative that he alone is attuned to, and will make up the dumbest shit on the fly with no regards to it's validity. He doesn't lie out of necessity, he lies out of convenience, narcissism, and idiocy; and the fact that he seemingly cannot contain himself from doing otherwise scares me far more than the alternative.

Plus, there's that bit where PolitiFacts rated 13% of Hillary's statements to be flatly false, but Trump garnered a hefty 53% of those. So yeah, both awful, but hardly equally so.

You're just measuring one type of awful though. The awful part of Clinton includes far more than lying about a statistic of some minority group or some social issue she voted on. She has been actively (and successfully) eroding the political process, taking money from foreign governments, cutting her family members in on deals, etc. And as for lying habitually, think about some of the famous lies she's been telling. What gain is there from saying you landed under sniper fire over seas? What gain is there saying you have always opposed NAFTA? It might gain you points for the few people you are in the room with for an hour or so, but all of these kinds of things were very public, and quite easily refuted. Is she worse than Trump? Maybe, maybe not, but she is certainly not orders above him. At least Trump may be bafoonish enough to be a toothless president that accomplishes nothing. I'm truly frightened what we must endure at the hands of a political monster like Hillary.

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15-10-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(15-10-2016 12:04 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  You're just measuring one type of awful though. The awful part of Clinton includes far more than lying about a statistic of some minority group or some social issue she voted on. She has been actively (and successfully) eroding the political process, taking money from foreign governments, cutting her family members in on deals, etc. And as for lying habitually, think about some of the famous lies she's been telling. What gain is there from saying you landed under sniper fire over seas? What gain is there saying you have always opposed NAFTA? It might gain you points for the few people you are in the room with for an hour or so, but all of these kinds of things were very public, and quite easily refuted. Is she worse than Trump? Maybe, maybe not, but she is certainly not orders above him. At least Trump may be bafoonish enough to be a toothless president that accomplishes nothing. I'm truly frightened what we must endure at the hands of a political monster like Hillary.


The sniper fire and NAFTA ones aren't even close to Trump lying about being invited on the John Oliver's show or him lying about his own tweets. I could imagine a scenario where at one time or another it might have been advantageous to lie about being under fire (and really, wasn't that a news anchor Brian Williams?). But Trump lying about making fun of John Stewart's surname? That's not Machiavellian, that's plain fucking stupid; a total disregard for any semblance of truth in favor of his own personal narrative, even when it's trivial. There is no reason to lie there, except that zero fucks were given about what the actual truth was in favor of the personal narrative Trump wanted to project at the moment. That's shit a kindergartner does.


Plus, there is that whole bit where Trump couldn't find Iraq on a map if his life depended on it; and certainly more than his life will depend on it if he is elected.

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16-10-2016, 11:57 AM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2016 12:04 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(15-10-2016 01:29 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 12:04 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  You're just measuring one type of awful though. The awful part of Clinton includes far more than lying about a statistic of some minority group or some social issue she voted on. She has been actively (and successfully) eroding the political process, taking money from foreign governments, cutting her family members in on deals, etc. And as for lying habitually, think about some of the famous lies she's been telling .What gain is there from saying you landed under sniper fire over seas? What gain is there saying you have always opposed NAFTA? It might gain you points for the few people you are in the room with for an hour or so, but all of these kinds of things were very public, and quite easily refuted. Is she worse than Trump? Maybe, maybe not, but she is certainly not orders above him. At least Trump may be bafoonish enough to be a toothless president that accomplishes nothing. I'm truly frightened what we must endure at the hands of a political monster like Hillary.


The sniper fire and NAFTA ones aren't even close to Trump lying about being invited on the John Oliver's show or him lying about his own tweets. I could imagine a scenario where at one time or another it might have been advantageous to lie about being under fire (and really, wasn't that a news anchor Brian Williams?). But Trump lying about making fun of John Stewart's surname? That's not Machiavellian, that's plain fucking stupid; a total disregard for any semblance of truth in favor of his own personal narrative, even when it's trivial. There is no reason to lie there, except that zero fucks were given about what the actual truth was in favor of the personal narrative Trump wanted to project at the moment. That's shit a kindergartner does.


Plus, there is that whole bit where Trump couldn't find Iraq on a map if his life depended on it; and certainly more than his life will depend on it if he is elected.

By your reasoning, you'd rather have a leader who lies about about their political agendas and breaches in national security than one who lies about a tweet or a TV show? Also, pointing to a piece of Geography isn't going to impress me much. Should the president know where Iraq is exactly on an unlabelled map? Maybe? I've been at the southern boarder of Iraq a couple of times, and not sure I could guess it right. I'm more interested in their foreign policies than their Geography trivia. That's what we invented Google for. No one's life depends on the president's ability to label maps. Not saying Trump's foreign policies are reasonable, because they aren't , but your reasoning for forgiving or overlooking Hillary's massive indiscretions is remarkable.

And yes, that was Hillary lying about snipers tying to shoot her as she landed on an airfield. Brian Williams alleged to have been shot at in a Helo.




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16-10-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  By your reasoning, you'd rather have a leader who lies about about their political agendas and breaches in national security than one who lies about a tweet or a TV show? Also, pointing to a piece of Geography isn't going to impress me much. Should the president know where Iraq is exactly on an unlabelled map? Maybe? I've been at the southern boarder of Iraq a couple of times, and not sure I could guess it right.

The only real estate the Donald is interested in locating are his Trump properties and the area between unconsenting women's legs.

(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm more interested in their foreign policies than their Geography trivia.

Then I assume you agree with the Donald's talk on nuclear proliferation and his comments on his willingness to use them?

(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  That's what we invented Google for. No one's life depends on the president's ability to label maps.

And yet a great many lives depend on a president being well informed. Consider

(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Not saying Trump's foreign policies are reasonable, because they aren't , but your reasoning for forgiving or overlooking Hillary's massive indiscretions is remarkable.

Deflection. I can't speak for EK but as for me HRC's indiscretions, while troubling, are much less problematic imo than her happily uninformed opponent, you know that shoot from the hip, ego-driven, unqualified, uninterested, ungrounded, hyper-sensitive, bullying, narcissistic, misogynistic, racist, lying sexual predator. Did I miss anything?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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16-10-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(16-10-2016 01:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  By your reasoning, you'd rather have a leader who lies about about their political agendas and breaches in national security than one who lies about a tweet or a TV show? Also, pointing to a piece of Geography isn't going to impress me much. Should the president know where Iraq is exactly on an unlabelled map? Maybe? I've been at the southern boarder of Iraq a couple of times, and not sure I could guess it right.

The only real estate the Donald is interested in locating are his Trump properties and the area between unconsenting women's legs.

(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm more interested in their foreign policies than their Geography trivia.

Then I assume you agree with the Donald's talk on nuclear proliferation and his comments on his willingness to use them?

(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  That's what we invented Google for. No one's life depends on the president's ability to label maps.

And yet a great many lives depend on a president being well informed. Consider

(16-10-2016 11:57 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Not saying Trump's foreign policies are reasonable, because they aren't , but your reasoning for forgiving or overlooking Hillary's massive indiscretions is remarkable.

Deflection. I can't speak for EK but as for me HRC's indiscretions, while troubling, are much less problematic imo than her happily uninformed opponent, you know that shoot from the hip, ego-driven, unqualified, uninterested, ungrounded, hyper-sensitive, bullying, narcissistic, misogynistic, racist, lying sexual predator. Did I miss anything?

I'm sure you thought you were presenting an argument that refutes my positions, but you weren't. Pretty much all of the terrible things you said about Trump, I'd agree with - but that doesn't make his Democratic opponent any better of an option. She fails on her own merits. The difference between them, primarily, is that Clinton knows what the fuck she is doing - so, in a dichotomy (of which this isn't), would I rather have an evil intelligent self-interested she-devil, or an buffoonish, bigoted moron? In that scenario I'd take the moron, because he is going to fail to get things accomplished. He will not only be fighting Democrats in the House and Senate, he will also be fighting Republicans. They are both, I think, equally dangerous of intentions, (though not identical). One of the two has the means to reliably make shit happen. She would sell you out in a second if there was anything at all in it for her. Make no mistake. I know you many here may think anyone who could possibly consider Trump a better option than Clinton is a moron, and to that I would say, my name is Chuck and I don't give a fuck.

#FeelTheJohnson

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16-10-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(16-10-2016 02:36 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  The difference between them, primarily, is that Clinton knows what the fuck she is doing - so, in a dichotomy (of which this isn't), would I rather have an evil intelligent self-interested she-devil, or an buffoonish, bigoted moron? In that scenario I’d take the moron, because he is going to fail to get things accomplished.

The moron’s modus operandi is to lash out disproportionately at any and all who disagree with him, just look at the 35,000+ lawsuits he’s filed in his lifetime on top of vitriol he spews. What happens when said moron is given the keys to the auto? The one that effectively controls the largest military machine in history?

(16-10-2016 02:36 PM)‘Dark Light Wrote:  He will not only be fighting Democrats in the House and Senate, he will also be fighting Republicans. They are both, I think, equally dangerous of intentions, (though not identical).

I couldn’t disagree with you more. Dangerous is an uninformed, thin-skin demagogue with the nuclear codes. HRC can’t come close to that.

(16-10-2016 02:36 PM)‘Dark Light Wrote:  One of the two has the means to reliably make shit happen. She would sell you out in a second if there was anything at all in it for her. Make no mistake. I know you many here may think anyone who could possibly consider Trump a better option than Clinton is a moron, and to that I would say, my name is Chuck and I don’t give a fuck.

This line of thinking is what is truly dangerous.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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