Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
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17-06-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(17-06-2016 04:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 02:47 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Yes, the chart only represents payroll taxes. Consumption tax or Value Added Tax in some countries (VAT) isn’t linked to your income but spending habits.

However would you clarify what you mean by “balances out much more evenly”.

They are flat taxes so 5%(as an example) sales tax is 5% on any taxable purchase regardless of your income. These kind of taxes tend to hit you much harder the further down the income ladder you go. So yes a progressive income tax puts the burdon on the upper end a flat tax (or regressive tax) puts a much higher burdon the lower end. From a federal standpoint about half the country pays little to no taxes but those same people are hit much harder by local sales taxes. That is what I meant by it ballances out.

And the poorer states pay higher rates of sales tax. In some counties if not most in Tennessee the sales tax is over 10%
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17-06-2016, 05:10 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(17-06-2016 04:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 02:47 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Yes, the chart only represents payroll taxes. Consumption tax or Value Added Tax in some countries (VAT) isn’t linked to your income but spending habits.

However would you clarify what you mean by “balances out much more evenly”.

They are flat taxes so 5%(as an example) sales tax is 5% on any taxable purchase regardless of your income. These kind of taxes tend to hit you much harder the further down the income ladder you go. So yes a progressive income tax puts the burdon on the upper end a flat tax (or regressive tax) puts a much higher burdon the lower end. From a federal standpoint about half the country pays little to no taxes but those same people are hit much harder by local sales taxes. That is what I meant by it ballances out.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that a State sales tax of say 5% to use your example, is a larger percentage of a person’s disposable income on the lower end of the income ladder?

If this is what you are saying then yes, I agree.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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17-06-2016, 05:13 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.



#sigh
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17-06-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(17-06-2016 05:10 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 04:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  They are flat taxes so 5%(as an example) sales tax is 5% on any taxable purchase regardless of your income. These kind of taxes tend to hit you much harder the further down the income ladder you go. So yes a progressive income tax puts the burdon on the upper end a flat tax (or regressive tax) puts a much higher burdon the lower end. From a federal standpoint about half the country pays little to no taxes but those same people are hit much harder by local sales taxes. That is what I meant by it ballances out.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that a State sales tax of say 5% to use your example, is a larger percentage of a person’s disposable income on the lower end of the income ladder?

If this is what you are saying then yes, I agree.

Basically yes.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(17-06-2016 07:12 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 05:10 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  If I understand you correctly, you are saying that a State sales tax of say 5% to use your example, is a larger percentage of a person’s disposable income on the lower end of the income ladder?

If this is what you are saying then yes, I agree.

Basically yes.

Marginal utility of money.

#sigh
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18-06-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(17-06-2016 01:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 12:55 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Ok, then. How about this? If everyone has to work and pay at least some taxes, the majority of the country would be pissed off at what their money is being spent on and things might actually change. Instead what we have is a large portion of people soaking up tax dollars and demanding more money to sit around and do nothing.

You have no credibility until you disclose your effective tax rate. Depending on the level of your income and deductions I think you are likely paying a very low or even negative effective tax rate. Show me that you are not one of the very leeches you despise so much. Instead of worrying so much about the cost of welfare you should be more concerned with the cost of giving me $50,000 per annum in deductions. I'm a bigger leech than anyone on welfare.

It does not matter. When I have money deducted out of every paycheck and still at the end of the year owe the IRS a few grand, I am paying more than I can afford while others pay nothing and even get paid for doing nothing but breeding out of my taxes. It needs to fucking stop.
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18-06-2016, 06:51 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2016 07:34 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(17-06-2016 02:31 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Even if you can get Birdguy to see your logic, he's still going to complain because there are people farther down the chart who are getting more for their tax dollar than he is. He doesn't care about the people at the top who are getting less. If there's even one person who gets more than he does, he'll be pissed off. He's like the guy getting $10 worth of beer for $1 who resents the guy getting it for nothing.

He also doesn't seem to realize that people on welfare are not living lives of luxury. If he thinks they have it so good, he should give that lifestyle a try. I wouldn't want it.

I believe you are right Grasshopper. The human psyche is a funny thing. We humans look at most everything through the lens of relativity.

Here’s a great example:

In a Harvard study researchers asked a group of people if they would prefer to live in a place where they made $50,000 when everyone else was making $25,000 OR
make $100,000 where everyone else is making $200,000 and assuming prices were constant in both places.

Incredibly enough 52% said they preferred to make less as long as they made more than their peers!

(A Wealth of Common Sense ~ Ben Carlson)
http://www.albany.edu/~gs149266/Solnick%...ncerns.pdf
“Half of the respondents preferred to have 50% less real income but high relative income."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/And...000000.pdf

I think people like Birdguy1979 fall into the second group as you observe, as long as he percieves someone else benefitting MORE than him he’ll be upset, kinda like the four guys in my beer example who paid in nothing and were still pissed that that guy paying in the most got the biggest dollar benefit from the barkeep’s generosity.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-06-2016, 06:57 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2016 07:32 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(18-06-2016 05:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 01:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You have no credibility until you disclose your effective tax rate. Depending on the level of your income and deductions I think you are likely paying a very low or even negative effective tax rate. Show me that you are not one of the very leeches you despise so much. Instead of worrying so much about the cost of welfare you should be more concerned with the cost of giving me $50,000 per annum in deductions. I'm a bigger leech than anyone on welfare.

It does not matter.

But it does matter

(18-06-2016 05:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  When I have money deducted out of every paycheck and still at the end of the year owe the IRS a few grand, I am paying more than I can afford

What you can afford is relative. What are your spending habits? Are you living a lifestyle above your means?

(18-06-2016 05:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  while others pay nothing and even get paid for doing nothing but breeding out of my taxes. It needs to fucking stop.

I’m going to guess that you are in one of the lower income brackets that receive more in Federal benefits than they pay in but you are still pissed that in relation to you others get more benefits. Do you hear yourself?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-06-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(18-06-2016 06:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 05:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  It does not matter.

But it does matter

(18-06-2016 05:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  When I have money deducted out of every paycheck and still at the end of the year owe the IRS a few grand, I am paying more than I can afford

What you can afford is relative. What are your spending habits? Are you living a lifestyle above your means?

(18-06-2016 05:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  while others pay nothing and even get paid for doing nothing but breeding out of my taxes. It needs to fucking stop.

I’m going to guess that you are in one of the lower income brackets that receive more in Federal benefits than they pay in but you are still pissed that in realtion to you others get more benefits. Do you hear yourself?

Did you not read? I get nothing back at the end of the year. I owe. How exactly am I getting more than I realize?
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18-06-2016, 07:31 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2016 02:07 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Worrying About a Trump Victory? Don't.
(18-06-2016 07:06 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 06:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  But it does matter


What you can afford is relative. What are your spending habits? Are you living a lifestyle above your means?


I’m going to guess that you are in one of the lower income brackets that receive more in Federal benefits than they pay in but you are still pissed that in realtion to you others get more benefits. Do you hear yourself?

Did you not read? I get nothing back at the end of the year. I owe. How exactly am I getting more than I realize?

OK. Let me see if I can explain this to your satisfaction.

Would you agree that public services and projects have an intrinsic value?

"But let’s not forget that federal fiscal policy is a two-way street. Washington collects tax revenues in order to spend it to benefit people. And to one extent or another we all get some benefits from government, even if we may not perceive those benefits or want them.
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/60-percent...-pay-taxes

It’s not a tit for tat, in other words the benefits you and everyone else receives from living in this country isn’t measured ONLY in dollars you are refunded at the end of the year.

The list is long and includes everything from funding the Department of Children and Families, Department of Transportation, Social Security to the Department of Defense. You do realize that all these cost money don’t you? (See bolded above).

There is a benefit in pooling resources from the citizens of the nation to fund the PUBLIC enterprises. Whether you think you are getting you’re money’s worth is a different matter and RELATIVE.

I have met many people like you, always complaining about how much they have to pay the Federal Government while waving the American flag over their lawn (here I apologize to all you non-‘Murikans). It’s not all about you Birdguy1979. If you really wanted the system to be “fair as you see it” why aren’t you complaining about how much the top quintiles have to pay?

Your view on this topic is myopic.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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