Would Heaven even be worth it?
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24-02-2016, 02:41 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
One suspects that the only thing unthinking Christians really imagine when they think of an eternity in Heaven is the cessation of the earthly suffering that afflicts all sentient things — the stress of an animal that can't find enough food to eat as much as the creature who dies in the jaws of that animal, as much as pain, as much as human emotional pain.

Avoidance of suffering entails "healing" wounds like the loss of a beloved relative or pet, so most believers seem to fancy that will all go down within the pearly gates.

Of course, they seldom ponder in what form they will encounter their lost loved people/critters — what age, what physical condition, and so on. If so, this necessarily introduces the problem of different expectations which tends, in earthly life, to lead to conflict and — ta-da! — suffering.

If no such conflict can arise in the perfect bliss of the afterlife, then truly any being that ascends to heaven has been so drastically altered from his or her earthly "self" that it's fair to say that the person, in all their individuality, did not, in fact, go to heaven.

Seth likes to point out that if Christians are right, and he goes to hell, and his mother goes to heaven, it would be impossible for her true self to experience bliss knowing that her wayward son is suffering eternal torture. She will have been so denatured — or brainwashed to forget such things — that she will no longer really be his mother.

The only valid response believers can proffer to these dilemmas is to magic it all away: God can do anything, therefore, he can — I guess? — brainwash heaven's denizens into thinking they are perfectly happy and are "themselves."

Heaven strikes me as a pretty solid argument against the validity of traditional Christian belief.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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24-02-2016, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2016 03:11 PM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
(22-02-2016 08:48 PM)EppurSiMuove Wrote:  Hello fellow heathens,
I'm curious if you guys have asked this question before. I'm certain most have, and if enjoy your input. I've often wondered, why does Heaven sound so enticing to Christians? I mean, what exactly sounds so great about spending eternity doing nothing but worshipping a monarch? In all honesty, I can't think of anything that I would want to do FOREVER, but certainly not kissing some cosmic tyrant's ass. When my wife was younger, she would ask her church deacon mother questions about heaven, and she told her things like there's no marriage in heaven, and that everyone would just be happy all the time. I know it's a moot point, considering it's all fantasy, but for arguments sake, lets concede that heaven is real. If we have none of the things that make THIS life beautiful and worthwhile in heaven, how could that be desirable? If we lose the capability to feel deep emotions in heaven, other than ignorant bliss, does that not mean we also lose the very parts of us that make us who we are? Even when I followed the narrative and went along believing in God (somewhat, anyway), I was still a deep-thinking person who dealt with depression, often cause by a deep-seated empathy for others and their suffering. As weird as it might sound, I like that part of me. Not because it's ideal, but because it's me. I feel as if most Christians always dutifully preach away and "dive in to the scriptures", but never ask themselves what heaven would be like, realistically (again, moot point, since they are not realistic). Thoughts?

This is a question with double edged answers.

Here are the issues I like to consider:

1.) What makes something "valuable"?
As many have said, believers often think that spending an eternity singing praises to some god sparks the highest level of elated emotion that one could feel. Forever. And ever. And ever. Ad nauseam. The problem I see with this is that it goes against the notion of what makes something valuable. Basic econ 101 tells us when the supply of something rises, the demand falls. Another way to look at this is by engaging in the analogy of a diamond. The value of a diamond is not formidable based on a plethora of supply but exactly the opposite. The value lies in it's scarcity. In the same way, an eternity of time spent doing something over and over does not enhance that activity's value. It only serves to abate it.

2.) Part of the complexity of value is painted by new experiences. This most certainly parlays from the last point. If one is performing the same actions while never incurring any new experiences, the value of that environment decreases dramatically. I would grant that I don't know of any biblical verses that limit new experiences directly, but it is definitely implied that "worshiping" encompasses time spent in heaven.

The appeal, of course, to the believer is the removal of the fear of death. Many people don't want to face death because anything past that is unknown and we have evolved into creatures who seek comfort in certainty. Now, if one were to grant me the opportunity to live as long as I wanted (I decide when I die), at the peak of my life (age), with the ability to engage in new experiences, I think I would I jump on that opportunity.

But.....the typical view of heaven?? With the ever moving goal posts, ad hoc rationalizations and panacea of glib responses from believers whenever inconsistencies and/or issues are uncovered?? Nah...I'll leave that for the credulous. I can deal with reality and reality as I know it makes my life much more precious/valuable because I know my time is limited.

**Crickets** -- God
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24-02-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
Gee, I thought I had responded to this thread but I see I have not.

Would heaven* even be worth it?

For eternity? No. For a couple of years, maybe. After that I'd be bored out of my skull. Insanity would ensue. I'd start killing already dead people just to liven things up (Laughat kind of a joke there.....Rolleyes )


*note how I didn't capitalize heaven. Until it's proven to exist it's lowercase status on my keyboard.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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24-02-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
I thought Star Trek's holodeck was a better approach to the heaven concept. This is a reality shaped to your fantasies, not one that conforms to a vindictive deity's wishes.

I don't see how a reality that conforms to such a monster could be considered desirable.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-02-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
I recall as a child having heaven described to me by an adult relative.

I remember, quite clearly looking around room and thinking I didn't want to be there now...

Eternity with those people?

All of eternity?

Then they explained I wouldn't see my pets there because animals don't get to go to heaven. Only people.

I recall looking around the room again and beginning to cry, because I didn't want to be around all those people but I didn't want to go hell either.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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24-02-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
(24-02-2016 03:02 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  2.) Part of the complexity of value is painted by new experiences. This most certainly parlays from the last point. If one is performing the same actions while never incurring any new experiences, the value of that environment decreases dramatically.

Presumably many here have experienced an opiate high, whether legitimately through painkillers or not-so-legitimately, getting high.

It occurs to me that this might be a pretty good analog for an unchanging situation that many users — including me — wish would go on forever while in its throes. Part of the effect of the drug is (or can be) a complete surrender to the feeling of doped-up bliss, with no intrusion of intentions or boredom or agitation.

Heaven: The ultimate smack?

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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25-02-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
I've been taught that during eternity in heaven we will be preaching the not fallen worlds about gospel of Jesus saving the earth from sin. Basically we'll be like interstellar Jehova's witnesses preaching the gospel to every habitable planet in the universe. Also we'll be studying the character of god but even in eternity we will never fully comprehend god. Other features include, spending time talking with jesus of course, the apostles, and other personalities, including familiy and friends. Also not being able to have any negative feelings nor fatige since our bodies will be "transformed" to be perfect. And don't forget about playing with now dangerous animals without any danger.

I was raised a 7th day adventist and they are annihiliationists. After the saved go to heaven for 1,000 thousand years, then they go back to earth to found the "new Jerusalem". After that millenium, those who were not saved resurect in what is called "the 2nd resurrection" and their bodies remain in the same state as when they died. Satan will fool them to attack the holy city, and when they approach, fire will descent from the sky and consume then, eliminating their existance.

The saved will watch that annihilation with tears of sadness in their faces (thus infering that bad emotions were not erased...YET). Then god will erase those bad emotions. Here's the part I conflict with, supposedly gave us free will because he didn't want robots, but then eliminates the second option and just give us one path to follow, making us happy puppets for the rest of eternity. And that's the only way heaven will work, otherwise eventualy bad thoughts will arise and sin will "resurrect". Accepting eternity is accepting that you'll be a robot programed to just act the way god wants us to. We forcibly like the activities since there's no room for dislike in heaven.

As someone stated before, it's better non-extistence rather than eternity.

"Skepticism is the first step towards truth" -Denis Diderot
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25-02-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
(25-02-2016 07:58 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  I've been taught that during eternity in heaven we will be preaching the not fallen worlds about gospel of Jesus saving the earth from sin. Basically we'll be like interstellar Jehova's witnesses preaching the gospel to every habitable planet in the universe. Also we'll be studying the character of god but even in eternity we will never fully comprehend god. Other features include, spending time talking with jesus of course, the apostles, and other personalities, including familiy and friends. Also not being able to have any negative feelings nor fatige since our bodies will be "transformed" to be perfect. And don't forget about playing with now dangerous animals without any danger.

I was raised a 7th day adventist and they are annihiliationists. After the saved go to heaven for 1,000 thousand years, then they go back to earth to found the "new Jerusalem". After that millenium, those who were not saved resurect in what is called "the 2nd resurrection" and their bodies remain in the same state as when they died. Satan will fool them to attack the holy city, and when they approach, fire will descent from the sky and consume then, eliminating their existance.

The saved will watch that annihilation with tears of sadness in their faces (thus infering that bad emotions were not erased...YET). Then god will erase those bad emotions. Here's the part I conflict with, supposedly gave us free will because he didn't want robots, but then eliminates the second option and just give us one path to follow, making us happy puppets for the rest of eternity. And that's the only way heaven will work, otherwise eventualy bad thoughts will arise and sin will "resurrect". Accepting eternity is accepting that you'll be a robot programed to just act the way god wants us to. We forcibly like the activities since there's no room for dislike in heaven.

As someone stated before, it's better non-extistence rather than eternity.

Why would anyone believe that ridiculous story? Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-02-2016, 09:35 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?



There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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25-02-2016, 09:56 PM
RE: Would Heaven even be worth it?
No, even when I was christian the idea was nonsensical. I want this life. It would be cool to see historical figures, but that's not the point of heaven.
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