Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
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30-03-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
(30-03-2012 03:24 AM)Filox Wrote:  I eat meat because it is only natural for humans to do so.

It's also natural to run around naked, blow your nose in your fingers and die of an infected toe at age 20. 'Natural' isn't all that meaningful in a species that has changed itself, its habitat and its environment as drastically as humans have.
It's especially false when you consider the 'natural' means of getting food and how we actually get our food.
Yes, we are physically omnivorous, which means adaptable: we have choices that an obligate carnivore or herbivore doesn't, and the ability to produce suitable nourishment.

Quote: As for your "morality" it is faulty at this time already, you do not need to wait for something like plants feelings. They are alive, so they do feel stuff, only in a different way than we do, so that makes the confusion.

Suspect science here.... There is no confusion: vive la difference!

Quote: But what we do know is that plans produce oxygen and are a vital part of all life on earth, while cow is not. So in that way, you are doing bigger damage to this planet than I am.

That's just specious.

Quote: We are talking about existence here, eating equals existence.

The question is not whether to eat and exist, but whether it's right to continue existing under particular conditions; what moral weight we give to our own existence compared that of others.

Quote: Eating normally, even animals is a part of natural way we humans have evolved.

Yes, but evolution is change. When is human evolution finished? 1, 000, 000 BC, 10,000 years ago, 1860, 2100, never? How do we know when an adaptation has outlived its usefulness, or some better one is in the works?

Quote: I don't see anything wrong with eating meat,


That wasn't the question at all. The OP had already decided on a moral stand about meat-eating. Hidus managed a large and diverse population without meat for a couple thousand years - because they did see something wrong with it, as did a number of other sects, from ancient times onward. That's a choice humans can make, have made, and will continue to make quite successfully.

Humans are also moral creatures, whether any one of us likes to admit it or not. We couldn't form social organization, even family groups, without some shared idea of right and wrong. Call it what you like, but we are either governed by some moral imperatives, or we are sociopaths and the other people ostracize or kill or imprison us. Which specific moral code is employed depends on time and place and cultural perception.

The question was, how strong is the moral imperative against killing a fellow sentience, and how far can/ should a person extend it in the light of new information? It's an interesting question and doesn't really need the carnivores' standard defensive reaction.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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30-03-2012, 08:41 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
Fruitarians have already considered this.

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30-03-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
I say no but why would you? We are fortunate to be at the top of the food chain. As long as slaughter is done in a humane way I don't get why anyone has an issue with it. Lions could survive on veggie diets but they still kill the gazelle. The only difference is that we are able to understand that we are taking a life. But even that doesn't override our nature as omnivores IMO.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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30-03-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
What the fuck is "well-being?" I got thirty trillion cells. Anything with less - is food. Next question. Big Grin

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30-03-2012, 10:30 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
(30-03-2012 10:22 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  What the fuck is "well-being?" I got thirty trillion cells. Anything with less - is food. Next question. Big Grin
Spoken like a true carnivore. Thumbsup

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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30-03-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
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30-03-2012, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2012 10:37 AM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
(29-03-2012 08:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-03-2012 07:58 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  So I have to ask, what are you "following" when you don't steal, rape, kill, etc...
And why are you not doing these things.

Assuming that you refrain from doing these things.
In a way think of it as similar to people whom believe in god.
They struggle to understand why an atheist doesn't steal, rape, kill, etc...
because to them without god there is no good and without good people will act selfishly and steal, rape, kill, etc...

It is not a belief in morality that stops me from stealing, raping and killing.
1. If I rape, steal, or kill then I will find myself in mortal danger from other people, the people I am attacking and bystanders will likely see me as a threat and will retaliate with force. Therefore selfishly it is in my best interests not to rape, steal or kill...
2. As a member of society I don't want people raping, stealing from or killing me, therefore selfishly it is in my best interest to support and belong to a society where rape, theft and murder is not tolerated.
3. Within a society where rape, theft and murder is not tolerated and offenders face imprisonment, therefore selfishly it is in my best interest not to rape, steal or kill...

I don't not do these things because they are wrong and hence against my desire to be self righteous, I don't do these things because selfishly it is in my best interest not to.
I am having a hard time deciphering being selfishly, and fear of retaliation.

Simple put, you don't do what I consider bad because the outcome would be bad for you. So, let me ask, if people would not retaliate, AKA no one would ever know if you raped/killed. What would prevent you from doing so.

(30-03-2012 10:22 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  What the fuck is "well-being?" I got thirty trillion cells. Anything with less - is food. Next question. Big Grin
Would you please go educate yourself, and get fucked. Big Grin

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30-03-2012, 10:53 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
(30-03-2012 10:35 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Would you please go educate yourself, and get fucked. Big Grin

You just wanna watch. Tongue

I'm a flaming evolutionist. Moralizing becomes another form of selection. "Do the right thing" becomes the call of the oppressed who then evolve into the oppressors.

Let's throw some science in the mix. We do not "feel another's pain," empathy is a simulation; that simulation is not always correct. Suppose for example my Gwynnies takes the whip to me... mmn... best not interfere. Big Grin

An extreme example, but I know stuff. Like how the body produces natural painkillers and distorts the time sense when shit gets crucial. In essence, we live to suffer and die; to evolve beyond such is to break out of the ecosphere and seed barren space rock with organics. And entropy will be conserved. But to think of starving the self to spare the tomato, that ain't conserving entropy. Them tomatoes cannot get to Mars by themselves. Wink

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30-03-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
(30-03-2012 10:53 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Them tomatoes cannot get to Mars by themselves. Wink
Indeed

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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30-03-2012, 12:57 PM
RE: Would it be moral to starve, hypothetical question.
(30-03-2012 10:35 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(29-03-2012 08:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In a way think of it as similar to people whom believe in god.
They struggle to understand why an atheist doesn't steal, rape, kill, etc...
because to them without god there is no good and without good people will act selfishly and steal, rape, kill, etc...

It is not a belief in morality that stops me from stealing, raping and killing.
1. If I rape, steal, or kill then I will find myself in mortal danger from other people, the people I am attacking and bystanders will likely see me as a threat and will retaliate with force. Therefore selfishly it is in my best interests not to rape, steal or kill...
2. As a member of society I don't want people raping, stealing from or killing me, therefore selfishly it is in my best interest to support and belong to a society where rape, theft and murder is not tolerated.
3. Within a society where rape, theft and murder is not tolerated and offenders face imprisonment, therefore selfishly it is in my best interest not to rape, steal or kill...

I don't not do these things because they are wrong and hence against my desire to be self righteous, I don't do these things because selfishly it is in my best interest not to.
I am having a hard time deciphering being selfishly, and fear of retaliation.

Simple put, you don't do what I consider bad because the outcome would be bad for you. So, let me ask, if people would not retaliate, AKA no one would ever know if you raped/killed. What would prevent you from doing so.
If it were in my best interests, (especially for survival) I would kill, I have no doubt.

Probably not rape though, I don't get turned on by crying girls.
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