Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
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15-05-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
(15-05-2012 12:34 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  
(15-05-2012 10:01 AM)nach_in Wrote:  There are rules for how far we can react also, if you yell and insult someone for not thanking you, then you're doing something wrong, it's the same idea behind not giving the death penalty for possession.

About the measurement thing, sociology and every social science struggle with that, for the impact in individuals it should be fairly simple I guess, but for societal groups it get too complicated, too many variables. That's why those kind of sciences aren't very good at being sciency Tongue
Good point on rules for reacting (that would be epic douchebaggery).

Agree that sociology and social science are some of the weaker sciences, but what about some of the fascinating neurological study that's being done on allegedly subjective emotional states like happiness and love?

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get to a point where we can evaluate the objective neurological states associated with being the giver and receiver of both good and bad manners.
But manners are a social construction, what causes a bad reaction in one person not necessarily causes a bad reaction in some other culture person, burping in after a meal in the western world is considered a bad manner, but in some middle eastern cultures is a compliment (or so I've heard) so the neurological pathways will cause different reactions in different persons.
We could find better rules though, maybe some manners are easier to learn and we could change things so we accept those rules instead of some other one, but in the end we're slaves of our culture and that's unmeasurable... for now Drinking Beverage

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15-05-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
(14-05-2012 10:05 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  I'm still not convinced that there's no link between certain social manners and ethics in general (again, I'm leaning on what little I know about the role that manners like grooming play in primate society).
Read the quote in the post before mine.

Quote:Not all human behavior is classified as moral, however; some of it is nonmoral and some of it social, having to do with manners, or etiquette, which is essentially a matter of taste rather that of right and wrong.
Manners are preferences, not right and wrong. There are no right and wrong manners, only likes and dislikes.

Expecting someone to say thank you, can actually be argued to be immoral, but in no way, shape or form can one make a respectable argument that not saying thanks is an immoral act.

Your way of thinking, in general, can lead me to believe that you are an immoral person.


I originally was thinking that you were just viewing ethics by a shady definition. Ethics is basically morality, and it deals with what is right or wrong/good and bad (morally) within society. The only subtle difference between morality and ethics comes from 'within society'. Morality is what is right and wrong, and ethics is what is right and wrong within a system, which in general would deal with society/human beings in general and their interactions (e.g. murder, rape, masturbation, lying, suicide, etc, just to name some actions that commonly come up in discussion).

That isn't the problem, however. You can define what is right or wrong however you want. If you wanted to say what was right as whatever "improves society as a whole", you can do that. Utilitarianism does something similar by saying that right is whatever 'improves the overall happiness'. I think Utilitarianism is bullshit too, but that is besides the point. Regardless of how you define it, you are going to run into problems when you try to say that anything that is a preference can lead to an absolute right and wrong/good or bad (morally).

You can't make a leap from preference to absolute truth, and until you wrap you head around that concept, you will have problems understanding moral philosophy.

You would basically be taking the position of a moral relativist, which isn't a viable one. If you wanted to take that claim you would automatically fail because (and I'm going to sound like a broken record) preference can NOT equal absolute truth. The only way out of that claim is to say that morality is also preference and become an Emotivists. Basically you'd have the viewpoint, also in the post prior to my last, that David Hume had.

Quote: Hume argued that all morals are simply a matter of taste.

But like I started to get at earlier, I think how you define it doesn't even matter, because what I think you are trying to do is not bad philosophy but bad science. I think you are trying to argue that your own personal, societal preferences for behavior have an overall benefit to all of society. In my opinion, the philosophy of it kind of makes the science useless, but that is just me. To me, I don't care how you act as long as it could be deemed moral (if not just by common sense), and manners just provide a front for being a good person and do little to detail your inner character or will to do good or bad.

I guess I don't want to physically do science or come with scientific proof, but you can do want you want. If you came with a study that showed people who are view as well mannered were X% less likely to be violent, tell lies, steal, etc, and that supported your view, I'd be okay with that. But, as of right now, I'm not willing to believe that the person who opens doors, says please, says thank you, and eats properly at a table is going to be morally superior to an Autistic person.

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15-05-2012, 07:32 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
I have to add this, because I just realized that I might be misinterpreting what you meant by connection.

If you mean that some good manners could also show morality, as oppose to good manners are actually, within themselves, good/bad moral behaviors, I still disagree with your point of view but for a different reason.

I already point this out, but all manners can do is provide a front of moral character.

What 'thank you' as a phrase describes can actually be viewed as an affirmation of moral character; the same can be said about other actions.

The only problem with that is: the affirmation doesn't indicate the actual moral character of the person in question.

If that doesn't make sense right away, then think about the autistic person. Autistic people don't show that type of affirmative social behavior because of the way their brains operate or whatever, but that says little about how they are morally. Basically it only, in the autistic case, shows a lack of social skills and not a lack of moral character.

The opposite case (the front example) can be seen in psychopaths. Psychopaths can use polite social manners as a weapon of immorality against people. They can be kind to develop close social relationships and all while morally violating (and usually to the end of more moral violations) people.

Those may seem like extreme cases, but if you look at human beings in general, you can see traces of these personality types, or similar ones, in all different types of people across the board.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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15-05-2012, 08:38 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
I appreciate all of the thought that you put into this, TrulyX, I really do.

But it's worth pointing out that I don't put a lot of stock in a philosophical basis for, well, almost anything (e.g. I read the quote you referenced, and it's cool, but I don't give that much of a shit about it). You claim that be speaking of science, not philosophy, but most of what you referenced is philosophical in nature and you provided little to no scientific, peer-reviewed evidence that supports your many assertions.

In any case, what I do give an awful lot of a shit about is neurological studies dealing with human behaviors and emotions, including supposedly abstract concepts like love, compassion, morality, ethics, etc.

I have already granted that at this point, there is absolutely no clear tie between manners of any sort and ethics/morality and since I'm not a professional scientist, I can't bring any empirical evidence to the table. That's why I decided to not write the post I was thinking about writing.

However, I am not ready to rule out that at some point in the future, neurological mapping will provide more objective, empirical insight into behaviors associated with "manners" and potentially identify links between these behaviors and behaviors that we typically associate with morals or ethics. And there's nothing wrong with that. Much like the question "is there life out there in the universe" there's no evidence for it yet, but that doesn't mean that the scientific method of inquiry won't find some in the future (granted, this is much more likely than finding a link between manners and ethics).

P.S. You sure seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what I do or don't think, will or won't do, and will or won't be. That's not very scientific either, and some might say it's not good manners either ; )

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15-05-2012, 08:41 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
(15-05-2012 04:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(15-05-2012 12:34 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  Good point on rules for reacting (that would be epic douchebaggery).

Agree that sociology and social science are some of the weaker sciences, but what about some of the fascinating neurological study that's being done on allegedly subjective emotional states like happiness and love?

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get to a point where we can evaluate the objective neurological states associated with being the giver and receiver of both good and bad manners.
But manners are a social construction, what causes a bad reaction in one person not necessarily causes a bad reaction in some other culture person, burping in after a meal in the western world is considered a bad manner, but in some middle eastern cultures is a compliment (or so I've heard) so the neurological pathways will cause different reactions in different persons.
We could find better rules though, maybe some manners are easier to learn and we could change things so we accept those rules instead of some other one, but in the end we're slaves of our culture and that's unmeasurable... for now Drinking Beverage
Yeah, I hear you there. If it was easy to find an objective, empirical way to measure this stuff, somebody would have undoubtedly thought of it already.

That said, I think that we're going to see a virtual revolution in the coming decades. And it will be all about providing objective, empirical, neurological evidence for behavior patterns that we consider utterly and completely subjective at the present time. We can already see it happening with studies on hitherto "untouchable" emotions like love.

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16-05-2012, 12:35 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
Quote:You claim that be speaking of science, not philosophy, but most of what
you referenced is philosophical in nature and you provided little to no
scientific, peer-reviewed evidence that supports your many assertions.
"In my opinion, the philosophy of it kind of makes the science useless, but that is just me."

^^ From my last post. You kind of just stated the obvious.

I, also, never asserted anything, I just laid out what I thought was obvious and logical. I wasn't in any way trying to be forceful or make bold claims that haven't already been made by many others before me. That's why I referenced the quote, because it was made by someone other than me who came to the same conclusion, many years ago.

I already pointed out counter-examples (Autism and Psychopathy); I don't know if you weren't considering that to be a valid point, or just wasn't considering it scientific enough, but it was an attempt to provide more than "little to no scientific, peer-reviewed evidence". Personally, I'd have to say that my counter-examples should have been sufficient enough for you to, at least, consider.

Even though I felt the science of it wasn't necessary, I still made an attempt to address it.

I pointed out two, very well observed, studied, recognizable and well documented sets of individuals, who tend to exhibit behavior, that seem to draw extreme contradictions to your claims, and which can be tested, and probably, or rather definitely, have been tested by neuroscience, biology, psychology, and the like.

Quote: However, I am not ready to rule out that at some point in the future,
neurological mapping will provide more objective, empirical insight into
behaviors associated with "manners" and potentially identify links
between these behaviors and behaviors that we typically associate with
morals or ethics.
I pointed out that I was also willing to accept that also, even though I think it is extremely unlikely. It might not seem like it to you, but do you not realize how, if not just incorrect, egotistical that claim sounds? I don't know exactly what it is your are trying to say, and I think I have to refrain from trying to get you to explain, given that every time I did previously, it came of as me "making a lot of assumptions about what [you] do or don't think", which is never what I was trying to do. I was just trying to get a better idea of what you were getting at, and making statements, as well as posing questions, to get you to further explain. However, if you did mean: people who behave like you see fit, will one day be found to be morally superior to others, that is just insane; even if it does end up being true. How would that be any different than religion? Religion also claims their arbitrarily defined set of rules make those who follow superior, and one day those people will be found superior and rewarded.

Quote:You sure seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what I do or don't
think, will or won't do, and will or won't be. That's not very
scientific either, and some might say it's not good manners either.
Never tried to, and like I pointed out, I was just trying to get an idea of what you were trying to get at. If it came off that way, I apologize. I was just looking for further explanation, as well as reasoning, behind you stance on the issue.

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16-05-2012, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2012 01:07 PM by lightninlives.)
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
(16-05-2012 12:35 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  [quote]I pointed out that I was also willing to accept that also, even though I think it is extremely unlikely. It might not seem like it to you, but do you not realize how, if not just incorrect, egotistical that claim sounds? I don't know exactly what it is your are trying to say, and I think I have to refrain from trying to get you to explain, given that every time I did previously, it came of as me "making a lot of assumptions about what [you] do or don't think", which is never what I was trying to do. I was just trying to get a better idea of what you were getting at, and making statements, as well as posing questions, to get you to further explain. However, if you did mean: people who behave like you see fit, will one day be found to be morally superior to others, that is just insane; even if it does end up being true. How would that be any different than religion? Religion also claims their arbitrarily defined set of rules make those who follow superior, and one day those people will be found superior and rewarded.

How can you, on the one hand, say all you are trying to do is "get a better idea of what you [i] were getting at" while simultaneously accepting that however unlikely it is in your mind, that at some point in the future scientific research will identify potential links between supposedly subjective "manners" and ethics?

It sounds like you are already quite clear on what I'm getting at, and yet you continue to grasp at straws by offering up strange conclusions (veiled as questions) that lead you to believe that I'm on some egotistical, insane (your words, not mine) quest. For starters, I'm not trying to define any rules of superiority or get groups of people to be rewarded. I simply made a comical and somewhat ironic observation at a local park and asked folks for their thoughts on if there was any tie between that and the domain of ethics and/or morals.

That you see ego and religious undertones in this line of conversation is something you need to work out in your own psyche. I've been pretty damn clear that I'm not asserting any reasonable connection, but that doesn't mean that I can't continue to think about it, read scientific literature on the subject, and hold out final judgement on my own personal stance until some point in the future when there's a stronger body of evidence either for or against. Based on your own response, it sounds like you're in the same boat, so why do you continue seeing patterns that aren't there?

P.S. If you still find yourself unsure of what I'm getting at, just read the title of the thread. It's really not that complicated, egotistical, or confrontational as you're making it out to be.

P.P.S. Appreciate the apology. No offense taking. I just think you're over-analyzing and/or reading too much into this.

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16-05-2012, 01:37 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
Quote: How can you, on the one hand, say all you are trying to do is "get a
better idea of what you were getting at"

That's what I was trying to do. Actually that is what I still am trying to do.

Quote:while simultaneously accepting that however unlikely it is in your mind, that at some point
in the future scientific research will identify potential links between
supposedly subjective "manners" and ethics?
I'm not saying that I accept that science WILL; I'm only saying IF THEY DO, I'd be willing to accept the conclusion.

I'm not the type of person to form a point of view, and then when I'm found to have been incorrect, attempt to double down and not see the facts.

Quote: It sounds like you are already quite clear on what I'm getting at
I'm still not.

Quote:That you see ego and religious undertones in this line of conversation is something you need to work out in your own psyche.

I didn't see religious undertones, I just said that religion could be a comparison to the type of reasoning that I thought you were getting at. I still, however, don't know what exactly you're getting at i.e. I don't know what connections or what types of connection you think there are between ethics/morality and manners, and what you think science can or will be able to do to show connections??????

Quote: If you still find yourself unsure of what I'm getting at, just read the title of the thread. It's really not that complicated, egotistical, or confrontational as you're making it out to be.

I addressed the title of the thread in the first post, and every time I posted you replied raising question; so I, therefor, saw you replying as a need to further explain the points in my posts that you were disagreeing, or showing concerns or questions, with.

The thing is if I knew exactly what you were getting at, I could, more than likely, give a precise answer.

There are connections between morality/ethics and manners, but there are also connections that you definitely do not want to, can't, or shouldn't draw.






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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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16-05-2012, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2012 01:53 PM by lightninlives.)
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
(16-05-2012 01:37 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
Quote: How can you, on the one hand, say all you are trying to do is "get a
better idea of what you were getting at"

That's what I was trying to do. Actually that is what I still am trying to do.

Quote:while simultaneously accepting that however unlikely it is in your mind, that at some point
in the future scientific research will identify potential links between
supposedly subjective "manners" and ethics?
I'm not saying that I accept that science WILL; I'm only saying IF THEY DO, I'd be willing to accept the conclusion.

I'm not the type of person to form a point of view, and then when I'm found to have been incorrect, attempt to double down and not see the facts.

Quote: It sounds like you are already quite clear on what I'm getting at
I'm still not.

Quote:That you see ego and religious undertones in this line of conversation is something you need to work out in your own psyche.

I didn't see religious undertones, I just said that religion could be a comparison to the type of reasoning that I thought you were getting at. I still, however, don't know what exactly you're getting at i.e. I don't know what connections or what types of connection you think there are between ethics/morality and manners, and what you think science can or will be able to do to show connections??????

Quote: If you still find yourself unsure of what I'm getting at, just read the title of the thread. It's really not that complicated, egotistical, or confrontational as you're making it out to be.

I addressed the title of the thread in the first post, and every time I posted you replied raising question; so I, therefor, saw you replying as a need to further explain the points in my posts that you were disagreeing, or showing concerns or questions, with.

The thing is if I knew exactly what you were getting at, I could, more than likely, give a precise answer.

There are connections between morality/ethics and manners, but there are also connections that you definitely do not want to, can't, or shouldn't draw.





(sigh)

I didn't say that science "will"

I said that science might.

There you go putting words in my mouth and forming straw man arguments, that you then seem to enjoy countering.

There are connections between morality/ethics and manners, but there are also connections that you definitely do not want to, can't, or shouldn't draw.


There you have it.

You yourself are asserting that there are connections between manners and ethics (I won't even go that far yet, because I don't have any strong evidence to support the assertion) and that helps answer the original question I posed.

There are also connections that can't be drawn, and I agree with that.

And we've both already agreed that there is a possibility, albeit faint, that future scientific advancement will pave the wave for an empirical approach to understand the connections between these two concepts.

And I've also mentioned that since I don't have any real evidence to support my assertion that there's a strong connection, I don't plan on writing a post about it.

Does this more or less cover it, or would you like to continue to argue with someone that more or less agrees with you in every possible way?

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16-05-2012, 02:18 PM
RE: Would social manners fall under the umbrella of morals and/or ethics?
(16-05-2012 01:50 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  
(16-05-2012 01:37 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
That's what I was trying to do. Actually that is what I still am trying to do.

I'm not saying that I accept that science WILL; I'm only saying IF THEY DO, I'd be willing to accept the conclusion.

I'm not the type of person to form a point of view, and then when I'm found to have been incorrect, attempt to double down and not see the facts.

I'm still not.


I didn't see religious undertones, I just said that religion could be a comparison to the type of reasoning that I thought you were getting at. I still, however, don't know what exactly you're getting at i.e. I don't know what connections or what types of connection you think there are between ethics/morality and manners, and what you think science can or will be able to do to show connections??????


I addressed the title of the thread in the first post, and every time I posted you replied raising question; so I, therefor, saw you replying as a need to further explain the points in my posts that you were disagreeing, or showing concerns or questions, with.

The thing is if I knew exactly what you were getting at, I could, more than likely, give a precise answer.

There are connections between morality/ethics and manners, but there are also connections that you definitely do not want to, can't, or shouldn't draw.





(sigh)

I didn't say that science "will"

I said that science might.

There you go putting words in my mouth and forming straw man arguments, that you then seem to enjoy countering.

There are connections between morality/ethics and manners, but there are also connections that you definitely do not want to, can't, or shouldn't draw.


There you have it.

You yourself are asserting that there are connections between manners and ethics (I won't even go that far yet, because I don't have any strong evidence to support the assertion) and that helps answer the original question I posed.

There are also connections that can't be drawn, and I agree with that.

And we've both already agreed that there is a possibility, albeit faint, that future scientific advancement will pave the wave for an empirical approach to understand the connections between these two concepts.

And I've also mentioned that since I don't have any real evidence to support my assertion that there's a strong connection, I don't plan on writing a post about it.

Does this more or less cover it, or would you like to continue to argue with someone that more or less agrees with you in every possible way?
Quote: scientific research will identify potential links between supposedly subjective "manners" and ethics
Sorry, it just looked as if the word 'will' was in there somewhere. I guess I have to apologize again, I'm sorry. Also, I didn't form any arguments I just reiterated a position, that I though you might have been misinterpreting. Again, sorry for any confusion.

Quote:And we've both already agreed that there is a possibility, albeit faint,
that future scientific advancement will pave the wave for an empirical
approach to understand the connections between these two concepts.
I still have no clue about the connections you think can be made???? What connections??? That is the question I've been looking to get answered since you raised the idea that connections could be drawn scientifically. Help me out here!!!

We don't agree. I can't see what connections you think science is going to be able to come up with. What I was explaining might be possible, would be on par with them proving that god(s) exist (that might be an overstatement but not much of one).

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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