Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
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09-01-2017, 05:23 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
We would be 700 years ahead which would mean we would have gone extinct 600 years ago.
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09-01-2017, 05:27 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
Banjo, if you have not, watch all of the episodes of the COSMOS series with Neil, that might also help you understand. It is't that you are wrong, but you are missing a bigger picture. There other points in much older history where the powers that be felt threatened by those being more open or becoming more independent or more questioning.

In the case of Rome going from the puppet gov of prior polytheism to the puppet gov of Christianity, the ruling class mentality did not change, you simply went from polytheistic rule to monotheistic rule. Some of that shift over long periods was that the prior polytheism over extended itself financially and Christianity gained popularity because it was seen as an underdog, if I am not correct NERO might have been the cause of that rise in popularity for scapegoating the minority religion for the fire of Rome. Nobody likes a bully.

Sorry, Rome never fell, the only thing that changed was going from polytheism to monotheism. Just like China never fell, it simply went from royal rule to Communist rule. But even with China, it's traditions and majority population never left.

Constantine might have fallen for Christianity out of a real gullible sense of empathy, or saw it's rise of popularity of political expedience.

Same can be said for Egypt. Imagine if someone back then had said, "Why are we wasting our time making up all these gods that are not real?" Even back then, if someone like a Sagan had existed prior to someone inventing the god Horus, and if enough people like a Sagan had been great enough in numbers, we could also have advanced much quicker even prior to the invention of Roman polytheism.

"If ifs and butts were candy and nuts"......

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09-01-2017, 05:29 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
Mate I read the Romans. The actual Romans. Are you unaware of this fact?

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09-01-2017, 05:38 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
(09-01-2017 05:29 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Mate I read the Romans. The actual Romans. Are you unaware of this fact?

So? You are playing a game of "what ifs" when it still remains that is not what happened.

AGAIN, what if someone had said "What is this Horus crap? No, Osirus isn't real, your ability to build a monument to him does not make him real".

SERIOUSLY before you get stuck on that, WATCH the COSMOS serious with Neil. There are far more points in history where we "almost" advanced, you are cherry picking one point in history.

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09-01-2017, 05:53 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
(09-01-2017 05:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  To many variables to give meaningful answer. There is a reason for which historians leave alternative history to writers.

Indeed. Too many variable and permutations. But what about a world where the Archduke Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated by a Serbian 'freedom fighter' while his driver was trying to get their car restarted after stalling it because he was unfamiliar with Sarajevo and was trying to adapt to a change of plans necessitated by an earlier attempt that very day on the Archduke's life?

Basically, what if the Seminal Catastrophe had never happened? Our world would be vastly different. No war reparations, no foothold for fascism, no dismantling of the old hereditary monarchies, no fragmentation of the old empires, no Second World War, no Manhattan Project, no Cold War, no Space Race, no Perestroika and Glasnost, no War on Terrorism...

Fuck...

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09-01-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
I should elaborate.

From all my many years reading history, Roman for most of my life and others. I don't think a blanket statement by NDT in this case can be taken very seriously. History has been built upon events, The battle of Midway, Cannae, the Punic wars, Islamic invasions or Mongolian nightmares.

Anything can change history. Had Rome in both West and east as we know it....?

Or, did Rome in the west ever really fall?

How many catholics on the planet?

Lots of people misunderstand Roman history. How it worked, its weaknesses and strengths, vices and virtues. Rome is a very complex beast.

Fate decided often due to weather and a weakened bridge.

Had the Goths and Vandals not attacked the west, who knows? Had Michael not wasted the treasury? What future emperor may have made poor deals, let's say in a Rome of 1500? By that time xian Rome would be mega powerful and dangerous.

Had Paganism survived, Rome would still have gone broke.

Tyson and your "big picture" and what may have happened had any Rome survived we don't know. And show me some respect. I actually know what is known of ancient Rome from Livy's early history to the fall of Byzantium 29. May. 1453.

Oh, I saw COSMOS.

I try not to disrespect you Brian. I do have little niggles at you in true Australian fashion. I am surprised you do not know more of my love of history. Most regulars know I'm obsessed with it.

I think you're a nice guy. Somewhat idealistic and perhaps even naive. (I owed you that) But a decent guy.

Too bad about that bridge, eh?

You know what bridge to which I refer.

I'll wait while you Google it.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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09-01-2017, 05:57 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
I fear a potential backslide in progress right now with our right wing Christians in America, no different than stifled progress back then. But that still did not change that Roman and Greek polytheism ALSO had a ruling class/warrior class business class and peasant, and even back then, indentured slavery and slavery existed.

Ancient Greece and Rome in the days of belief of Zues and Apollo certainly produced great artwork, and philosophers, but it also was stuck in the same ruling class mentality, and still had its barbarity and conflicts. It was not perfectly peaceful polytheism. That would be like trying to paint America's Christian history as rosy. Take the good with the bad, but don't romance our species.

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09-01-2017, 06:02 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
(09-01-2017 05:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-01-2017 05:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  To many variables to give meaningful answer. There is a reason for which historians leave alternative history to writers.

Indeed. Too many variable and permutations. But what about a world where the Archduke Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated by a Serbian 'freedom fighter' while his driver was trying to get their car restarted after stalling it because he was unfamiliar with Sarajevo and was trying to adapt to a change of plans necessitated by an earlier attempt that very day on the Archduke's life?

Basically, what if the Seminal Catastrophe had never happened? Our world would be vastly different. No war reparations, no foothold for fascism, no dismantling of the old hereditary monarchies, no fragmentation of the old empires, no Second World War, no Manhattan Project, no Cold War, no Space Race, no Perestroika and Glasnost, no War on Terrorism...

Fuck...

Still to many variables. WW I still could have happened, caused by another seemingly insignificant deed.

Without assasination our world could be different but that's all that we can say. Telling how it could be different is akin to divination.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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09-01-2017, 06:03 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
Oh and this is a What if thread.

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09-01-2017, 06:06 AM
RE: Would we be more advanced if the roman Empire never fell
(09-01-2017 06:02 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  how it could be different is akin to divination.

Correct. Tyson was stupid to say what he said.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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Banjo.
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