Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
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24-12-2014, 06:29 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2014 06:36 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 05:54 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Um, science says everything in all of observable reality came from nothing, or something very close to nothing.

Well, "ummmmmm" Bozo, it says NOTHING of the sort. It makes no comment on the subject AT ALL as there is no way to test it. "Coming from nothing" in an a-temporal environment, is meaningless.

If you think it does, reference the peer reviewed article that makes this claim, Bozo.

Until somone can come up with what the word "god" means, and define it coherently, I would not bother to make ANY claim about a ridiculous undefined concept. Claiming things that are not defined exist or do not exist is a total waste of time.

You're suffering from low ambiguity tolerance, and a high NEED for cognitive closure, so you MUST fill in ALL your gaps with the gods to make yourself feel good.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-12-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 06:06 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Free, I always appreciate your responses.

Can you give me evidence of a god that would still leave doubt?

The short answer is no.

As Bucky stated above, we would need to define what would constitute a "god."

But as far as all the supposed gods that have been identified in human history, not one is supported with any evidence as being in any way superior to the human race, nor have any of those supposedly superior gods been demonstrated to actually exist.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-12-2014, 07:20 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Agreed. But since we can never know what happens after we die, at least not with current technology, I'm going to remain 6.999999999999 on the Dawkins Scale and stay just shy of saying I'm gnostic on this subject. It's not a fear thing, because if there's a god he can suck my hairy bean bag, but I just don't truly believe we can know everything.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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24-12-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 07:20 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Agreed. But since we can never know what happens after we die, at least not with current technology, I'm going to remain 6.999999999999 on the Dawkins Scale and stay just shy of saying I'm gnostic on this subject. It's not a fear thing, because if there's a god he can suck my hairy bean bag, but I just don't truly believe we can know everything.

Well let me ask you something.

If you had not been exposed to theology, would there be any reason at all to think that there is something more after we die?

This life after death thing finds its birth in theology, and despite the numerous accounts of those claiming an NDE, there has never been any tangible evidence to prove that either.

So what is the reason why you can't let go? Uncertainty? Hope? Fear?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-12-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 07:27 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-12-2014 07:20 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Agreed. But since we can never know what happens after we die, at least not with current technology, I'm going to remain 6.999999999999 on the Dawkins Scale and stay just shy of saying I'm gnostic on this subject. It's not a fear thing, because if there's a god he can suck my hairy bean bag, but I just don't truly believe we can know everything.

Well let me ask you something.

If you had not been exposed to theology, would there be any reason at all to think that there is something more after we die?

This life after death thing finds its birth in theology, and despite the numerous accounts of those claiming an NDE, there has never been any tangible evidence to prove that either.

So what is the reason why you can't let go? Uncertainty? Hope? Fear?

Well, let me ask you first, do you mean just me being exposed to theology or the fact that theology exists?

If I were always an atheist but there were believers out there, I would still remain agnostic since there are believers and theology exists.

Now, if there were never any reference to gods or supernatural occurrences then sure, I'd never have a doubt. But that's not the case.

I don't believe in flibjibits, but neither does anyone else because I just made it up and will not pursue trying to discover if they are real, whatever they are.

But since gods and theology have thrived in one form or another for millennia, I'd be hard-pressed to be gnostic about their non-existence, regardless of how silly I believe it is.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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24-12-2014, 08:01 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2014 08:13 PM by Free.)
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 07:42 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(24-12-2014 07:27 PM)Free Wrote:  Well let me ask you something.

If you had not been exposed to theology, would there be any reason at all to think that there is something more after we die?

This life after death thing finds its birth in theology, and despite the numerous accounts of those claiming an NDE, there has never been any tangible evidence to prove that either.

So what is the reason why you can't let go? Uncertainty? Hope? Fear?

Well, let me ask you first, do you mean just me being exposed to theology or the fact that theology exists?

Both really, because can't have one without the other.

Quote:If I were always an atheist but there were believers out there, I would still remain agnostic since there are believers and theology exists.

But why? What compels you to remain agnostic? If there is no evidence other than the various beliefs of others, is that enough? Do you consider the religious beliefs of others- who cannot demonstrate any truth to their beliefs- sufficient enough evidence for you to hold to agnostic?

You see, when we as atheists allow theology to continue to influence us through the beliefs of others, would it not be true that we are still holding fast to the beliefs of these religious ideologies?

If the standard definition of what an atheist is, is that it is one who has no beliefs in gods, then if we allow theology to continue to influence us to the point that we doubt our own atheism, then are we truly atheists?

No, I don't think so, not at all.

I prefer to draw a line in the sand and demand conclusive proof of the existence of these supposed gods to challenge my atheism. Atheism is the natural default state of humanity at birth, for if it wasn't no one would ever have to teach us anything about theism to indoctrinate us.

Atheism is your true state, and it's up to theology to disprove atheism, and so far it hasn't made a dent in it.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-12-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 07:27 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-12-2014 07:20 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Agreed. But since we can never know what happens after we die, at least not with current technology, I'm going to remain 6.999999999999 on the Dawkins Scale and stay just shy of saying I'm gnostic on this subject. It's not a fear thing, because if there's a god he can suck my hairy bean bag, but I just don't truly believe we can know everything.

Well let me ask you something.

If you had not been exposed to theology, would there be any reason at all to think that there is something more after we die?

This life after death thing finds its birth in theology, and despite the numerous accounts of those claiming an NDE, there has never been any tangible evidence to prove that either.

So what is the reason why you can't let go? Uncertainty? Hope? Fear?

That's my question. Why is "life after life" even a question at all.
It's a learned knee-jerk "thing". IF "life after life" is a "thing", then it's a "thing" for ALL things that were/are ever alive. Does anyone think it's a "thing" for bacteria ?
What's interesting is to trace where Homo sapiens came up with it, and why.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-12-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 08:01 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-12-2014 07:42 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Well, let me ask you first, do you mean just me being exposed to theology or the fact that theology exists?

Both really, because can't have one without the other.

Quote:If I were always an atheist but there were believers out there, I would still remain agnostic since there are believers and theology exists.

But why? What compels you to remain agnostic? If there is no evidence other than the various beliefs of others, is that enough? Do you consider the religious beliefs of others- who cannot demonstrate any truth to their beliefs- sufficient enough evidence for you to hold to agnostic?

You see, when we as atheists allow theology to continue to influence us through the beliefs of others, would it not be true that we are still holding fast to the beliefs of these religious ideologies?

If the standard definition of what an atheist is, is that it is one who has no beliefs in gods, then if we allow theology to continue to influence us to the point that we doubt our own atheism, then are we truly atheists?

No, I don't think so, not at all.

I prefer to draw a line in the sand and demand conclusive proof of the existence of these supposed gods to challenge my atheism. Atheism is the natural default state of humanity at birth, for if it wasn't no one would ever have to teach us anything about theism to indoctrinate us.

Atheism is your true state, and it's up to theology to disprove atheism, and so far it hasn't made a dent in it.

It's not theology that keeps me slightly agnostic, it's that I can't know for certain. But you and Bucky make great points. I think as my atheism matures I will feel that way, but we'll see.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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24-12-2014, 08:51 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2014 10:04 PM by Free.)
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(24-12-2014 08:25 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(24-12-2014 08:01 PM)Free Wrote:  Both really, because can't have one without the other.


But why? What compels you to remain agnostic? If there is no evidence other than the various beliefs of others, is that enough? Do you consider the religious beliefs of others- who cannot demonstrate any truth to their beliefs- sufficient enough evidence for you to hold to agnostic?

You see, when we as atheists allow theology to continue to influence us through the beliefs of others, would it not be true that we are still holding fast to the beliefs of these religious ideologies?

If the standard definition of what an atheist is, is that it is one who has no beliefs in gods, then if we allow theology to continue to influence us to the point that we doubt our own atheism, then are we truly atheists?

No, I don't think so, not at all.

I prefer to draw a line in the sand and demand conclusive proof of the existence of these supposed gods to challenge my atheism. Atheism is the natural default state of humanity at birth, for if it wasn't no one would ever have to teach us anything about theism to indoctrinate us.

Atheism is your true state, and it's up to theology to disprove atheism, and so far it hasn't made a dent in it.

It's not theology that keeps me slightly agnostic, it's that I can't know for certain. But you and Bucky make great points. I think as my atheism matures I will feel that way, but we'll see.

I perfectly understand.

At one time I started a thread on this forum asking people to define atheism according to their own definition. No one understood what I was getting at, and of course I was admonished by several posters as someone who was trying somehow to redefine atheism.

But I never actually took the time to express myself in my own thread due to the admonishments being so rigorous as to derail the topic. So i will try to express my position on atheism here.

My signature means more than what a passing glance may draw from it. It really is true that all of us were born with no beliefs in any gods, and that is exactly what atheism is.

We were all born atheistic. And from that point we are inundated with various theological beliefs. But it is entirely in our own hands as to whether or not we permit the theistic views to successfully challenge our atheism.

Now, you mentioned that you are 6.99999 % leaning towards Gnostic atheism. The truth is, though, the day you- and everyone else- was born you were a 7.0 Gnostic Atheist.

Since there is absolutely no evidence to support the existence of any gods, then there is absolutely no reason for our default 7.0 position to drop one single iota.

You see, we do not ever need to provide any evidence to support our atheism, but rather theism must provide evidence to contest our atheism. Theism has failed to produce any challenge whatsoever to my atheism, due to a lack of evidence.

And that is me being intellectually honest about it. That's me standing as an atheist and saying, "Since there is no evidence being submitted, the case for theism is dismissed."

Atheism is not a position held, but rather a state of being.

Therefore, you do not become an atheist for the simple reason that you were born that way in the first place. How does one becomes something that they already are? And if you allow a single iota of theism to negatively affect your atheism to make you doubt it, then the least you can do is be honest with yourself and ask, "Did theism provide any tangible evidence for me to doubt my atheism?" Since the answer will be no, then you are in fact a 7.0 Gnostic Atheist.

As for me, I remain untouched; a 7.0 Gnostic Atheist.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

Bowing

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-12-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
I would disagree entirely with you Free because I think you use the concepts too lightly. It depends entirely on how you define Knowledge and 7.0 Gnostic Atheism.

I would say a baby is in no way defined as a 7.0 Gnostic Atheist because it is incapable of any defining knowledge. We are not being crafted or born with an instant experience of knowledge. Nor the cognitive ability of knowledge. So I would merely state Agnostic Atheism is the default state. Because they don't actually have any semblance of knowledge.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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