Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
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25-12-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Quote:Compelling evidence to support a negative supposition is inherently a waste of time

Please read this slowly. Claiming, whether implicitly or explicitly, that human reason is qualified to come to meaningful valid conclusions on the topic of gods is NOT a negative supposition, but a positive assertion.

Like all positive assertions, it bears the burden of proof.

Quote:If you had any sense of intellectual honesty you would acknowledge what atheism is, the absence of belief that any deities exist, no faith required to have an absence of belief.

This is classic atheist dishonesty, though I think it is not deliberate on your part.

Lack of belief is built upon something. What is that something? Find it, and then you will know what you are asserting.

Quote:Now, stop being a dick and have yourself a Merry Christmas.

What? Being a dick is how I celebrate Christmas!!! :-) Merry to you too, however you celebrate.
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25-12-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 01:33 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I would disagree entirely with you Free because I think you use the concepts too lightly. It depends entirely on how you define Knowledge and 7.0 Gnostic Atheism.

I would say a baby is in no way defined as a 7.0 Gnostic Atheist because it is incapable of any defining knowledge. We are not being crafted or born with an instant experience of knowledge. Nor the cognitive ability of knowledge. So I would merely state Agnostic Atheism is the default state. Because they don't actually have any semblance of knowledge.

Knowledge is something acquired, which includes the acquisition of any knowledge of theology. At our time of birth we have not acquired any such knowledge of anything, which includes the beliefs in any gods. Atheism is simply defined as a lack of beliefs in any gods.

We are at our most pure state of atheism at the moment of birth. We have no knowledge of any gods, and therefore no beliefs. It is the most innocent state of being for all of humanity, and all of humanity is in a state of atheism on the day we are born.

Therefore, we begin life at a 7.0 level. It is only an acquisition of the knowledge of theology that negatively affects our natural atheistic state of being.

If there was no theology, the entire world would be filled with 7.0 atheists.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-12-2014, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2014 09:20 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 08:50 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:Compelling evidence to support a negative supposition is inherently a waste of time

Please read this slowly. Claiming, whether implicitly or explicitly, that human reason is qualified to come to meaningful valid conclusions on the topic of gods is NOT a negative supposition, but a positive assertion.

Like all positive assertions, it bears the burden of proof.

Oh ffs, really?
P l e a s e r e a d t h i s e v e n s l o w l e r.
I have been shown no evidence of gods as described by the religious as existing. Period. That’s it. I make no positive assertion, I simply make an observation based on someone else’s positive assertion.

You, or anyone else, can cry at the top of your voice that gods, unicorns and leprechauns exist but until those assertions are proven true I’ll simply hold the position that they do not. (Trolls, however, do seem to exist Cool )

(25-12-2014 08:50 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:If you had any sense of intellectual honesty you would acknowledge what atheism is, the absence of belief that any deities exist, no faith required to have an absence of belief.

This is classic atheist dishonesty, though I think it is not deliberate on your part.

Lack of belief is built upon something. What is that something? Find it, and then you will know what you are asserting.

Lack of belief is NOT built on anything, you’re really trying too hard to be a disingenuous twit (I mean that in the nicest way).

If someone tells you that leprechauns exist are you going to tell me that for you to refute that belief you now have to find evidence that leprechauns DON’T exist? Too funny.

(25-12-2014 08:50 AM)‘Baba Bozo’ Wrote:  
Quote:Now, stop being a dick and have yourself a Merry Christmas.

What? Being a dick is how I celebrate Christmas!!! :-) Merry to you too, however you celebrate.

I dance around naked wearing nothing but a smile. Big Grin

Hope this doesn’t vilolate any rules Blush
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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-12-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:07 AM)Free Wrote:  .... and all of humanity is in a state of atheism on the day we are born.

Baba Dickhead wonders, so what? Why do posters keep making this point? Could you please explain why this is useful information?
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25-12-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
I've been trying to decide what to say too you for about an hour (Granted: watching TV as well. Adds forty five mins. plus.) without degenerating into attacking you for your conceited tone and joyous dickholery.

Basically what I've got is:
Can you find and clearly define where reason and rigor breaks down when applied to claims? Doesn't matter if it's a religious claim or a scientific thing or whatever you want it to be. The only proviso I'd like to lay is that you can't appeal to unknown, unknowns.

If you can't find an example: What's the problem with using a methodology with a perfect track record as though it has a perfect track record?

If you can: Fair play. Will respond depending on your example.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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25-12-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:11 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I have been shown no evidence of gods as described by the religious as existing. Period.

Not period. The evidence requirement is part of the reasoning process. By asking for evidence, you are believing that human reason is qualified to address the question and come to a valid.

Quote: That’s it. I make no positive assertion, I simply make an observation based on someone else’s positive assertion.

You are making a positive assertion, but you either don't realize it, or won't admit it. "Lack of belief" does not spring in to existence magically from nothing. It is based on something. That something, whatever it may be, is the positive assertion.

You are asserting reason is qualified. But you refuse to prove it. We are supposed to accept your assertion on faith I guess.

Quote:You, or anyone else, can cry at the top of your voice that gods, unicorns and leprechauns exist but until those assertions are proven true I’ll simply hold the position that they do not.

You can cry at the top of your voice that human reason is qualified to analyze the god question, but until you've proven that assertion I decline to believe in it.

You're only atheist and a reasoner in regards to OTHER PEOPLE's beliefs, but not your own.

Quote:Lack of belief is NOT built on anything,

So you're proposing a lack of belief just springs in to existence from nothing? Please don't trot out the baby argument again, nobody cares about babies beliefs.

Quote:If someone tells you that leprechauns exist are you going to tell me that for you to refute that belief you now have to find evidence that leprechauns DON’T exist? Too funny.

You have to establish that whatever authority you chose, whether holy books, human reason, coin tossing, hopscotch, or any other is qualified to come to valid conclusions on the subject of leprechauns.

(25-12-2014 08:50 AM)‘Baba Bozo’ Wrote:  I dance around naked wearing nothing but a smile. Big Grin

Damn! I'm trumped again!!!! There are so many opportunities to bring the word "dick" back in to the conversation again at this point, but I will hold back, cause it's Christmas and the kids might be reading. :-) So happy smiling!
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25-12-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:18 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  for your conceited tone and joyous dickholery.

Ha, ha! :-) Joyous dickholery. Definitely gonna steal that phrase for my collection. Good one.

Quote:Can you find and clearly define where reason and rigor breaks down when applied to claims?

Ok, great question, thank you.

First, I've not said reason is unqualified to answer god questions, I've demanded that this be proven, and not just asserted. Very same test we reasonably apply to holy books.

Second, I'm surely not saying reason is unqualified for all questions. There are VERY many cases where reason has proven it's usefulness. If we use reason to build a million bridges, and the bridges don't fail, we have demonstrated reason's ability to design bridges.

Third, before debunking the God proposal, we should try to be clear about what that proposal is. Generally speaking, it is usually an assertion that some form of intelligence lies at the heart of everything.

So, as reasoners, we should ask ourselves, what do we know about this arena called "everything"? And we will soon realize, we don't even know what that word refers to.

Thus, atheists are claiming to know what doesn't exist, in an arena they can't define.

Also, please recall how incredibly small we are in comparison to "everything" whatever that might turn out to be. Very, very, very, very small....

Fourth, can we take an honest look at human beings? Do we really have to list all the many ways we are truly insane? Surely our calculations on the very biggest questions should be suspect.

I am completely in agreement with members that we should not accept the qualifications of holy books on faith.

I'm simply extending this very sensible methodology to all chosen authorities, whatever they may be.

If you want us to accept the credentials of any chosen authority to address some particular issue....

Prove it.

I hope readers will see that this demand is fully in line with fundamental principles of atheism.
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25-12-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(23-12-2014 12:35 PM)Autumnflowers Wrote:  Please give a "Why or why not do you think or don't think it's possible to claim if a god fully exists or not"

It depends on how you define god. In its simplest form pantheism is hard to argue against. If you accept that the universe exists, and you define god as the totality of everything well then god exists. If however you assign additional attributes such as intelligence then I want to see some evidence of these attributes. Until then the intelligent pantheistic god remains a possibility but is far from a probability.

Same goes for the god of the deist. If you keep it simple and define god as the creator of the universe then yes, the universe we know had a beginning therefore god. Once again though if you assign additional attributes such as intelligence or purpose I want to see some evidence. Until then there are other possibilities that don't include these additional attributes that I find more probable given the evidence we do have.

I admit that both the pantheistic and deistic gods are possibilities. I just find the probability of either low. The theistic gods of humans such as the God of Abraham are a different case. The evidence is pretty compelling that these gods are fairy tales left over from a time when humans had no better explanations for the way the world worked. These gods I can dismiss completely because the evidence says they are a construct of humans.

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25-12-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:23 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 09:11 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I have been shown no evidence of gods as described by the religious as existing. Period.

Not period. The evidence requirement is part of the reasoning process. By asking for evidence, you are believing that human reason is qualified to address the question and come to a valid.

Yes, period. First human makes positive assertion, second human asks how and why, first human has nothing...second human yawns.

(25-12-2014 09:23 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote: That’s it. I make no positive assertion, I simply make an observation based on someone else’s positive assertion.

You are making a positive assertion, but you either don't realize it, or won't admit it. "Lack of belief" does not spring in to existence magically from nothing. It is based on something. That something, whatever it may be, is the positive assertion.

You are asserting reason is qualified. But you refuse to prove it. We are supposed to accept your assertion on faith I guess.

My lack of belief “springs” from first human claiming that gods, unicorns and leprechauns exist.

(25-12-2014 09:23 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:You, or anyone else, can cry at the top of your voice that gods, unicorns and leprechauns exist but until those assertions are proven true I’ll simply hold the position that they do not.

You can cry at the top of your voice that human reason is qualified to analyze the god question, but until you’ve proven that assertion I decline to believe in it.

Human reason is qualified to analyze human reason.


Quote:You’re only atheist and a reasoner in regards to OTHER PEOPLE's beliefs, but not your own.

The neat thing about being a skeptic is that if I’m shown scientific evidence showing that my position is incorrect I’ll change my position.


Quote:Lack of belief is NOT built on anything,

See above


Quote:So you're proposing a lack of belief just springs in to existence from nothing? Please don’t trot out the baby argument again, nobody cares about babies beliefs.

Show me where I’ve done such a thing.

(25-12-2014 09:23 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:If someone tells you that leprechauns exist are you going to tell me that for you to refute that belief you now have to find evidence that leprechauns DON’T exist? Too funny.

You have to establish that whatever authority you chose, whether holy books, human reason, coin tossing, hopscotch, or any other is qualified to come to valid conclusions on the subject of leprechauns.

Evidence, as in scientific evidence which has proven itself to be the most reliable way for humans to understand hows and whys.

(25-12-2014 09:23 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:I dance around naked wearing nothing but a smile. Big Grin

Damn! I'm trumped again!!!! There are so many opportunities to bring the word "dick" back in to the conversation again at this point, but I will hold back, cause it's Christmas and the kids might be reading. :-) So happy smiling!

Now, back to my dancing. Banana_zorro

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-12-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Quote:Yes, period. First human makes positive assertion, second human asks how and why, first human has nothing...second human yawns.

Second human is using reason, without first proving reason is qualified for the job at hand.

Second human doesn't even realize such a proof is necessary, because their faith in reason's infinite power is so strong they take it as an obvious given.

Second human doesn't just have faith, they have blind faith.

Second human is a good naked dancer though, and that's what really matters. So never mind about all that crap above, who cares?? :-)
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