Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
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25-12-2014, 10:03 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:56 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Evidence, as in scientific evidence which has proven itself to be the most reliable way for humans to understand hows and whys.

But this doesn't matter. Being the most reliable method does not automatically equal it being qualified for every job.
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25-12-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 10:03 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 09:56 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Evidence, as in scientific evidence which has proven itself to be the most reliable way for humans to understand hows and whys.

But this doesn't matter. Being the most reliable method does not automatically equal it being qualified for every job.

You are free to propose another Drinking Beverage

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-12-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:39 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 09:18 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  for your conceited tone and joyous dickholery.

Ha, ha! :-) Joyous dickholery. Definitely gonna steal that phrase for my collection. Good one.

Quote:Can you find and clearly define where reason and rigor breaks down when applied to claims?

Ok, great question, thank you.

First, I've not said reason is unqualified to answer god questions, I've demanded that this be proven, and not just asserted. Very same test we reasonably apply to holy books.

Second, I'm surely not saying reason is unqualified for all questions. There are VERY many cases where reason has proven it's usefulness. If we use reason to build a million bridges, and the bridges don't fail, we have demonstrated reason's ability to design bridges.

Third, before debunking the God proposal, we should try to be clear about what that proposal is. Generally speaking, it is usually an assertion that some form of intelligence lies at the heart of everything.

So, as reasoners, we should ask ourselves, what do we know about this arena called "everything"? And we will soon realize, we don't even know what that word refers to.

Thus, atheists are claiming to know what doesn't exist, in an arena they can't define.

Also, please recall how incredibly small we are in comparison to "everything" whatever that might turn out to be. Very, very, very, very small....

Fourth, can we take an honest look at human beings? Do we really have to list all the many ways we are truly insane? Surely our calculations on the very biggest questions should be suspect.

I am completely in agreement with members that we should not accept the qualifications of holy books on faith.

I'm simply extending this very sensible methodology to all chosen authorities, whatever they may be.

If you want us to accept the credentials of any chosen authority to address some particular issue....

Prove it.

I hope readers will see that this demand is fully in line with fundamental principles of atheism.

For the sake of argument I'll agree. (Though you've framed it in a way that raises my hackles.)

So what differentiates the claim that a god exists from the claims that you are happy to apply reason too?

And bedtime. Merry Christmas to everybody but those who don't deserve it. (You know who you are.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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25-12-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 10:03 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 09:56 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Evidence, as in scientific evidence which has proven itself to be the most reliable way for humans to understand hows and whys.

But this doesn't matter. Being the most reliable method does not automatically equal it being qualified for every job.

Citation please

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-12-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 10:12 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  So what differentiates the claim that a god exists from the claims that you are happy to apply reason too?

Great question, thanks. I appreciate it.

1) In very many cases, reason has proven it's relevance and usefulness beyond doubt over and over again in documented real world cases. In some other cases, such proof is not available.

Example: Has it been proven that one can use reason alone to fall in love? If this was true, wouldn't dickhead programmer logic dudes like me have the most girlfriends? But that's not the case, is it? Actually, most of us logic nerds are lucky to have one girlfriend. :-)

2) There is the issue of scale. The god question is a proposal about the ultimate nature of everything. While I grant our ability to reason effectively on a million things in our local life, I decline to automatically assume this qualifies us to also address the very biggest questions.

Please note that I am applying reason to the god question. That's why I'm asking you for evidence that proves the qualifications of your chosen authority. This should not be a mysterious challenge to you, as it's the very same challenge you reasonably apply to holy books.

Holy books have proven they are useful to many people for many things. But that does not automatically equal holy books being qualified to answer the god question.

Human reason has proven it is useful to many people for many things. But that does not automatically equal reason being qualified to answer the god question.

If we want to make the leap from "useful for this" to "useful for that", we have to prove it. This principle applies to holy books, human reason, any tool or authority people might choose to address the god question with.
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25-12-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:13 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 09:07 AM)Free Wrote:  .... and all of humanity is in a state of atheism on the day we are born.

Baba Dickhead wonders, so what? Why do posters keep making this point? Could you please explain why this is useful information?

I suggest you go back a few pages and read where it all began. No need for me to explain it all again.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-12-2014, 02:32 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 07:58 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  I see absolutely no proof any god/deity/super being exists. Will I say that one absolutely doesn't exist? No, because given proof that one does, I'd reevaluate my stance.

I have traveled to many places in the world. People everywhere are just as convinced their disparate versions on god(s) exist and are the real one. Most seem to believe everyone else is deluded for their belief (or lack there of) in anything else.

Having never been indoctrinated into believing there is a god I think it's easier for me the dismiss the concept.

Maybe we're getting too caught up in avoiding the shifting of the burden of proof? I welcome the question "can u prove god doesnt exist"! Really? Disprove something that has never been proven to exist? Its a nonsensical question. We know they are talking about the god of the bible and we know that its man made. But it still doesnt prove that god doesnt exist? I beg to differ. How can a man made god exist?
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25-12-2014, 04:54 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
How does one go about telling the difference between an imaginary god and a real god ?

What are the differences ?

If you can't find any differences, guess what, your god that you thought was real, is actually imaginary.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-12-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 10:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 10:03 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  But this doesn't matter. Being the most reliable method does not automatically equal it being qualified for every job.

You are free to propose another Drinking Beverage

Yes yes yes!!! If you (Baba Bozo) think that reason is "unqualified" for X (whatever X might be), please suggest an alternative. Your shtick is getting tiresome. We use reason because we have nothing better. If you have something better, out with it please.
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25-12-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 10:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Yes yes yes!!! If you (Baba Bozo) think that reason is "unqualified" for X (whatever X might be), please suggest an alternative. Your shtick is getting tiresome.

It's getting tiresome because many posters here find thinking painful, and I'm too stupid to realize I'm largely talking to a wall. :-)

Quote:We use reason because we have nothing better.

Would you use a ouji board if you had nothing better? This is not a quip, but a sincere point. If you knew the ouji board was useless, would you still use it just because there was nothing else available?

My comments may eventually travel farther down the trail, but you're going to have to give me what I want if you want to go there.

What I want from my fellow posters is a good faith effort to advance this inquiry. If you can't or won't deliver that, you'll get nothing more from here but the same old stuff, sorry.

It doesn't interest me to spoon feed readers instant answers that they can instantly reject. Perhaps someone else will volunteer for that job.

Quote:If you have something better, out with it please.

These topics have been under inquiry for thousands of years, by some of the best minds on the planet. If a reader doesn't have the patience to stick with it, they might want to bow out and go see what's on TV or something. There's nothing wrong with that, no one is obligated to be interested in any of these topics.
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