Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
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25-12-2014, 06:02 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2014 06:24 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 05:42 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 10:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Yes yes yes!!! If you (Baba Bozo) think that reason is "unqualified" for X (whatever X might be), please suggest an alternative. Your shtick is getting tiresome.

NOTE: morondog didn't say that -- I (Grasshopper) did.

Quote:
Quote:We use reason because we have nothing better.

Would you use a ouji board if you had nothing better? This is not a quip, but a sincere point. If you knew the ouji board was useless, would you still use it just because there was nothing else available?

We use the best tool we have for whatever job we need to do -- that's all we can do. It baffles me that you think we have an alternative, and yet refuse to name one. And reason is not "useless". It may be useless for proving or disproving the existence of God (although St. Thomas Aquinas certainly didn't think so), but then that becomes a meaningless exercise unless and until we have a tool that is not useless (again, if you know of one, why are you hiding it?).

NOTE: As far as I can tell, nobody here is engaging in that exercise. And why should we?

Do you believe that everything that anyone can possibly conceive of must actually exist? I'll bet you don't. I'll bet you withhold belief in preposterous things until you have some evidence of their existence. That is exactly what we're doing with respect to God.
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25-12-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
When the word leprechaun and god can be interchanged in the bible and it's just as meaningful and accurate, that should tell you something.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-12-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Quote:NOTE: morondog didn't say that -- I (Grasshopper) did.

Sorry for my sloppiness!

Quote:We use the best tool we have for whatever job we need to do -- that's all we can do.

But it's not all we can do.

If it's true (yet to be proven) that we have no adequate tool for a particular job, we can simply admit that. Aren't atheists all about facing facts?

The first step in that direction is to carefully investigate whether or not we have an adequate tool for the job.

Quote:It baffles me that you think we have an alternative, and yet refuse to name one.

And the reason we are stuck at that place is because after 12,000 posts from me asking members to prove or disprove that reason is qualified to deliver meaningful answers on god questions, not a single person has made a good faith effort to do so.

And so until members get off their lazy butts and defend their own chosen authority (just as we would demand of theists) this is as far as we go. Baba Bozo will be dead soon, so if you should want to hear where he might go next, you'd best get on with it. :-)

Quote:And reason is not "useless".

Agreed. As I think you already understand, I am not claiming reason is useless for everything, or even the god inquiry. I'm simply asking for proof, like any good atheist would do.

Quote:It may be useless for proving or disproving the existence of God (although St. Thomas Aquinas certainly didn't think so), but then that becomes a meaningless exercise unless and until we have a tool that is not useless

It's not at all meaningless to know whether one has a tool which is capable of doing a particular job.

Some people will come to the conclusion that there is no tool qualified to answer the god question. This group will then divide in to one of two camps.

1) Some people will say if there is no way to answer the question, never mind about this, and they will redirect their attention to other topics which can be answered. This group is more interested in pursuing a particular methodology than they are in pursuing a particular inquiry. There's nothing wrong with this, each to their own.

2) Other people will accept they can't go down one path, finding answers, and so they will seek out other ways to continue the inquiry. This group is more interested in pursuing a particular inquiry than they are in using a particular methodology. If one methodology doesn't work, if one way of approaching the issue isn't going anywhere, they will drive around the obstacle and look for other ways to keep following their interest.

Suppose you wanted to fix a piece of broken glass, and you were really hoping to do the job with your favorite hammer which means a lot to you because you father left it to you.

So you start smashing the glass with the hammer. Oops, not working, making things worse.

So, which is more important to you? Using the hammer? Or fixing the glass?
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25-12-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 05:42 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Would you use a ouji board if you had nothing better? This is not a quip, but a sincere point. If you knew the ouji board was useless, would you still use it just because there was nothing else available?

How is that relevant? It has been stated over and over that we use reason because it has been shown to be useful so it isn't at all the same as using a ouija board that we know is useless. You can argue repeatedly that we can't prove ahead of time that we know reason will work for a given question but you're going to get the same response every time. We use reason based on the fact that it has been proven to be reliable and will continue to use it until it stops working or we find a better method. We have no alternatives except faith and ignoring the question.

Your question only makes sense if you can prove that reason can't answer the question AND that anybody is arguing that it can.

Quote:My comments may eventually travel farther down the trail, but you're going to have to give me what I want if you want to go there.

You are starting from a nonsensical point as far as I can see. Why would anybody want to pursue it?

If you think you have some point that nobody is getting then perhaps the problem is that you are unable to explain yourself clearly. All I've seen is you arguing that reason can't prove that it can "answer the god question" despite the fact that nobody appears to be disputing that.

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25-12-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
What you (Baba Bozo) don't seem to be getting is that "reason" is inescapable -- it's simply the way the human mind works. Every word you have posted on this forum was produced by means of (your) human reason. If we were to "seek another way", that very process of seeking would have to involve reason. If you don't want to use reason (even though you are inevitably doing exactly that every time you make an argument), your alternative is to just sit there and do nothing at all. I look forward to your great discoveries using that method.
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25-12-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 06:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What you (Baba Bozo) don't seem to be getting is that "reason" is inescapable -- it's simply the way the human mind works.

It's part of the way the human mind works.

Have you noticed I'm using reason myself? It's perfectly reasonable to use reason to ask what the limits of reason might be. That's all I'm doing.

Quote:Every word you have posted on this forum was produced by means of (your) human reason.

Not quite. Produced by a combination of reason, and an experience of the absence of reason.

Quote:If we were to "seek another way", that very process of seeking would have to involve reason.

Ok, yes, so what? Again, I'm not on a holy jihad against reason. I'm just asking what the limits of reason might be.

Quote:If you don't want to use reason (even though you are inevitably doing exactly that every time you make an argument), your alternative is to just sit there and do nothing at all. I look forward to your great discoveries using that method.

Ah, sitting there and doing nothing at all, an interesting suggestion.

Have you tried that perhaps? If yes, will welcome your report.

If not, how do you know it wouldn't accomplish anything?
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25-12-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Reason is an explanation or a justification for an action.

Explanations give us information about a topic.
Those explanations should contain facts.
Do you have any facts about god that explain his existence ?

So if truthful facts about god are not the correct tool to use, then it would seem we are left with only lies and non-facts.

The bible is full of those.

If justification (providing evidence for a claim) isn't the correct tool to use when you are trying to provide evidence for a claim, then I'm at a loss of even how to respond.

Providing an explanation is an excellent tool to use when you want to explain something.

Do you want to justify and explain why you believe in a god ?

Giving your reasons for believing is a great place to start. As an added bonus. Those reasons should contain truthful facts.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-12-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 06:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 06:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If you don't want to use reason (even though you are inevitably doing exactly that every time you make an argument), your alternative is to just sit there and do nothing at all. I look forward to your great discoveries using that method.

Ah, sitting there and doing nothing at all, an interesting suggestion.

Have you tried that perhaps? If yes, will welcome your report.

If not, how do you know it wouldn't accomplish anything?

I have a better idea. Since you're so gung-ho on the idea (of accomplishing things by sitting there doing nothing), and imply that you have actually tried it, why don't you give us a report? Let us know what you've accomplished by that method. That might give us an incentive to try it. Otherwise, why should I? It makes as much sense as trying to get to the moon by jumping. I'm not going to waste my time with that either.
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25-12-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
You ask about the limits to which we can provide explanations.

Yes there is a limit to what we can explain.
That limit is based on what we know.

If god is not within our limit of what we can explain, then he is also not within the limit of what we know.

Therefore we cannot know about any attribute that this (thing) is. So in fact, we can't even call it a god.

If you know nothing about X, then you can't even label it as anything.

Labeling something a god means that you know something about it. If you know something about it, then you can justify why you know something about it.

If you can't justify it, then you really don't know anything about it.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-12-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 06:53 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have a better idea. Since you're so gung-ho on the idea (of accomplishing things by sitting there doing nothing), and imply that you have actually tried it, why don't you give us a report? Let us know what you've accomplished by that method.

Because I'm not in the business of spoon feeding the lazy.

Quote:That might give us an incentive to try it. Otherwise, why should I?

I don't care if you try it, it's your choice, your business. If you don't wish to discuss it either, that's ok with me too.

I don't mean that in a snotty way, really. I'm just saying, I'm not an evangelist, so you don't need to get your panties all in a twist resisting my writing.

If there's nothing here that interests you, let it go, and find something else that does. Problem solved.
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