Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
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25-12-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
I don't claim that a god doesn't exist for sure for the same reason that I don't claim that fairies don't exist for sure. They are concepts which you cannot prove or disprove their existence, and I only give credibility for something existing when I see evidence for its existence. Neither gods, nor fairies have any evidence for their existence, so they will sit on the same shelf as far as I'm concerned.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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25-12-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Since reason can’t be used as a method to answer the god question (as per BB “prove or disprove that reason is qualified to deliver meaningful answers on god questions") I say we go with feels.

Seriously I’ll try one more time.

First you have to describe the god/s in question. Let’s just go with the monotheistic one for now shall we? If you want to propose another god/s with different qualities then please do so.

Based on all the claims other humans have made regarding said god none have withstood scientific inquiry. The scientific inquiry was indeed applied by using reason. Is this method qualified to answer man-made claims of the mystical and supernatural? I think it is, I think it’s the only way we have to come to a conclusion of man-made claims.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-12-2014, 07:48 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Explanations are qualified to give meaningful answers when one is trying to explain gods existence.

Those explanations (reason) need to be truthful facts.

Do we have any of those ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-12-2014, 07:52 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Key: Special Pleading. Equivocation Fallacy. Appeal to ignorance. Shifting the burden of proof. Strawman.

(25-12-2014 09:39 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
I Wrote:Can you find and clearly define where reason and rigor breaks down when applied to claims?

Ok, great question, thank you.

First, I've not said reason is unqualified to answer god questions, I've demanded that this be proven, and not just asserted. Very same test we reasonably apply to holy books.

Second, I'm surely not saying reason is unqualified for all questions. There are VERY many cases where reason has proven it's usefulness. If we use reason to build a million bridges, and the bridges don't fail, we have demonstrated reason's ability to design bridges.

Third, before debunking the God proposal, we should try to be clear about what that proposal is. Generally speaking, it is usually an assertion that some form of intelligence lies at the heart of everything.

So, as reasoners, we should ask ourselves, what do we know about this arena called "everything"? And we will soon realize, we don't even know what that word refers to.

Thus, atheists are claiming to know what doesn't exist, in an arena they can't define.

Also, please recall how incredibly small we are in comparison to "everything" whatever that might turn out to be. Very, very, very, very small....

[b]Fourth[/b], can we take an honest look at human beings? Do we really have to list all the many ways we are truly insane? Surely our calculations on the very biggest questions should be suspect.

I am completely in agreement with members that we should not accept the qualifications of holy books on faith.

I'm simply extending this very sensible methodology to all chosen authorities, whatever they may be.
If you want us to accept the credentials of any chosen authority to address some particular issue....

Prove it.


I hope readers will see that this demand is fully in line with fundamental principles of atheism.


(25-12-2014 11:02 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 10:12 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  So what differentiates the claim that a god exists from the claims that you are happy to apply reason too?

Great question, thanks. I appreciate it.

1) In very many cases, reason has proven it's relevance and usefulness beyond doubt over and over again in documented real world cases. In some other cases, such proof is not available.

Example: Has it been proven that one can use reason alone to fall in love? If this was true, wouldn't dickhead programmer logic dudes like me have the most girlfriends? But that's not the case, is it? Actually, most of us logic nerds are lucky to have one girlfriend. :-)

2) There is the issue of scale. The god question is a proposal about the ultimate nature of everything. While I grant our ability to reason effectively on a million things in our local life, I decline to automatically assume this qualifies us to also address the very biggest questions.

Please note that I am applying reason to the god question. That's why I'm asking you for evidence that proves the qualifications of your chosen authority. This should not be a mysterious challenge to you, as it's the very same challenge you reasonably apply to holy books.

Holy books have proven they are useful to many people for many things.But that does not automatically equal holy books being qualified to answer the god question.

Human reason has proven it is useful to many people for many things. But that does not automatically equal reason being qualified to answer the god question.

If we want to make the leap from "useful for this" to "useful for that", we have to prove it. This principle applies to holy books, human reason, any tool or authority people might choose to address the god question with.

Don't get me wrong: I agree that when talking about a "generic deity" agnostic atheism is the most honest position somebody can hold. Gnostic atheist's can probably say that their position is more correct as it's not allowing for any unknown unknowns or unfounded postulations. But the most honest position? Agnostic atheism.

When talking about a specific god claim. Like Thor or whatever. Gnostic atheism remains an entirely reasonable position to hold because you haven't shown:

-In what way "the god question" is fundamentally different from any other question about reality. (Yes. Sure. You've said that a god claim is bigger than others. That doesn't make reason any less of an effective tool when applied to it unless you further elaborate.)
-How reason fails when applied to any question about reality.

If reason is the tool which we need to default too (and you haven't supplied any alternative when asked by others so I'm assuming that it is) then ask

Also: New question. Which of these senarios do you agree is the "default position" people hold on any religious claim?

A) Person 1: There is no god. Person 2: There is:
B) Person 1: There is a god. Person 2: No there isn't.
C) Person 1: I have not yet considered if there is a god. Person 2: There is. Person 1: Show me the evidence.

Because none of them are positive claims.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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25-12-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(23-12-2014 01:57 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(23-12-2014 01:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Dildo,
When you get big and go to school you'll be able to take a class and learn about these complicated things. Now run along and play with your legos.

Oh, I am already very big. Sad

Sure you are.

[Image: page1-220px-Grandiose_delusions_cat_lion.pdf.jpg]

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-12-2014, 08:40 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(23-12-2014 12:35 PM)Autumnflowers Wrote:  So many that i have talked to on other sites speak of how they know a god doesn't exist
I don't agree or disagree as i honestly don't know. But isn't wrong to say you "Know" a god exists just like it's wrong to say you "Don't know a god exists?" Because in reality we can say we know but we haven't yet to die and figure it out sure more evidence supports this to be not possible, however we can't say for sure can we?
On your half, would you ever say for sure if a god did or didn't exist?
I feel as if i wouldn't because i feel like i couldn't ever know for sure.
Please give a "Why or why not do you think or don't think it's possible to claim if a god fully exists or not"

I would be comfortable in saying "God does not exist for sure."

Why?

TO paraphrase some one else (Dawkins? Tyson?)

"99.99999 Of every other god has been rejected and their various supposed 'Portfolios of control' pretty much been shown for the natural phenomena they are. Thor? Yeah, we know what thunder and Lightning are. Pele? Oh yeah, we know what plate tectonics and such are."

See how deities and the things they do seem to keep shrinking?

"Oh? Your god made the universe?"

(¬_¬)

"Yeah, we're thinking and testing real hard on that one and we'll get back to you with some information and facts."

Not to mention, but that puts said god 13.something billion years away back in the past. They seem to have actually done bugger all over that 13. something billion years. Everything just randomly hurtling about and expanding and exploding and stuff.

So... happy to say god(s) don't exist. Big Grin

Much cheers to all.
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26-12-2014, 12:14 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 08:50 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Lack of belief is built upon something. What is that something? Find it, and then you will know what you are asserting.

How big a stereo do I need to produce silence?

How bright a bulb do I need to generate darkness?

How much hair must I grow to become bald?

A lack or an absence is not built or based upon anything. It requires neither assertion nor assumption.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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26-12-2014, 01:21 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 09:39 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  First, I've not said reason is unqualified to answer god questions

Really? Let's check the accuracy of that.

(25-12-2014 09:39 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Third, before debunking the God proposal, we should try to be clear about what that proposal is. Generally speaking, it is usually an assertion that some form of intelligence lies at the heart of everything.

So, as reasoners, we should ask ourselves, what do we know about this arena called "everything"? And we will soon realize, we don't even know what that word refers to.

Let me know if I'm reading this wrong but it looks an awful lot like you're saying 'God is a form of intelligence that lies at the heart of everything and everything is too large to be encompassed by human reason.' Kindly correct me if I have misrepresented you in any way because it really looks like "reason is unqualified to answer god questions" is exactly what you just said in the same post.

---
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26-12-2014, 02:03 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
^Balls. Why didn't I catch that?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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26-12-2014, 06:45 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Lack of belief is built around truth and the idea that truth must be supported by evidence.

When you have a belief that isn't supported by truth, then it is probably supported by lies.

Gullibility is believing something without evidence.
Faith is believing something without evidence.

Your own religion is filled with lies and yet you believe that the devil is the one who deceives. Perhaps you should take a closer look at who you are really worshipping.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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