Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
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26-12-2014, 07:36 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Still waiting BTW.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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26-12-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
I have no qualms stating with certainty that god does not exist just as I can state with certainty that fairies do not exist. Just because a mind can conceive of something does not mean the concept has any valid existence in reality.
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27-12-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(25-12-2014 07:52 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  -In what way "the god question" is fundamentally different from any other question about reality.

It is a question about the ultimate nature of everything. That makes it unique.

We don't even know what the word "everything" refers to. So it seems kinda silly to make any kind of claim about the ultimate nature of something we can't begin to define in even the most basic manner.

As example, is "everything" one universe, or twenty billion trillion universes? How many unknown realms of reality, such as the previously unknown microscopic, remain to be discovered? None? Some? A billion?

How can we credibly make claims about the most central fundamental questions, given the tidal wave of ignorance we are swimming in??

Quote:(Yes. Sure. You've said that a god claim is bigger than others. That doesn't make reason any less of an effective tool when applied to it unless you further elaborate.)

Please demonstrate that reason is an adequate tool for falling in love, or appreciating a sunset? There are many instances in your ordinary daily life where reason is useful, and not so useful, right?

So why automatically assume reason is therefore adequate to answer the very biggest questions? Ask the question, sure. Try to prove it's ability, worth a try.

If the proof is not convincing, no belief. Atheism 101, applied to atheism itself. All I'm doing here is being loyal to the core principles of atheism. No proof = no belief.

Quote:If reason is the tool which we need to default too (and you haven't supplied any alternative when asked by others so I'm assuming that it is) then ask

Why not make holy books the default, given that they've not proven their qualifications to be a reliable authority on god questions either?

Again, all I'm doing is applying the very same test to reason that we apply to holy books. That's it, nothing complicated.

Quote:Also: New question. Which of these senarios do you agree is the "default position" people hold on any religious claim?

"I don't know", until such time as an ability to know is convincingly proven.

Because you seem sincere in your questions, and are willing to do some actual work, perhaps you might like to try this....

Hypothetically, what might happen if a reader did somehow arrive at the "I don't know" position? "I don't know" like as in, "I haven't the slightest idea what city you live in."

Then what?

Two possibilities come to mind....

1) Some people will say, if I can't reason about this, let's find something else to reason about.

This person's loyalty lies with the experience of answers, and with their preferred methodology, more than it does with this particular inquiry. This person will abandon the god inquiry if they can't use their favorite tool.

There's not a thing wrong with this. Not a thing. But this may help explain why they haven't made the progress they desire on the god inquiry, they're not really that interested in that particular inquiry, and have competing interests which trump this one.

Ok? Make sense?

2) Another person who comes to the "I don't know" place in regards to the god inquiry may not wish to abandon the inquiry.

In the case of this person, their loyalty to this particular inquiry may be greater than their desire to have The Answer experience, or their fondness for any particular methodology.

This person is like the fellow who, upon seeing his favorite hammer is not working in fixing a piece of broken glass, puts the hammer down, and tries another tool. This person's loyalty is to solving the problem, more than it is to his favorite hammer.

This is not a superior position. It's just another kind of person with a different set of priorities.

Wow, way too many words, sorry. If you find anything in there that interests you, go for it. Thanks for the PM reminder.
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27-12-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?



I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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27-12-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(27-12-2014 10:29 AM)bemore Wrote:  <Sam Harris video>

That's a great example of what I like about Harris, Hitchens, etc. No punches pulled, just lay out exactly what the theology is actually saying without all the flowery language and excuses.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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27-12-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue....

Consider this perhaps.

At the moment we think we know, to the degree we think we know, our inquiry begins to melt away. After all, why does a person who feels they have The Answer need an inquiry?

Such a person may say "my mind is still open" and sincerely mean it. So the door may not be slammed shut on further investigation.

But it seems only natural that as we gain confidence that we have found The Answer to any question, the air will start to leak out of the balloon of our interest in and enthusiasm for that inquiry. It wouldn't be logical to keep investigating with the same energy if we sincerely believe we've already found The Answer we were seeking. One price tag of knowing may be a reduction in the quality of our inquiry.

Another price tag for knowing can involve our little friend, The Ego. It's very common for our ego to use conclusions as the building material for our personal identity in the social competition environment. I know and you don't, so I'm high and you're low, and all of that.

Before you know it, this project can overtake our minds, and what might have started as a sincere inquiry morphs in to a battle to defend our little ego fortress. The intelligence we previously aimed at the inquiry gets reassigned to this new mission. It feels like we're still doing reason, but really we're not. Reason has been hijacked by our ego emotions.

Point being, knowing can come with price tags that don't always assist the inquiry process. Thus, it is perhaps wise to choose our knowings very carefully.
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27-12-2014, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2014 01:22 PM by kim.)
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
Would I claim a god doesn't exist for sure? Not entirely - there is an uncertainty to reality. But I might claim that if a god did/does exist, it would be irrelevant to my existence.

Its not something I really care about. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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27-12-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
(23-12-2014 12:35 PM)Autumnflowers Wrote:  On your half, would you ever say for sure if a god did or didn't exist?

Please give a "Why or why not do you think or don't think it's possible to claim if a god fully exists or not"

Yes.

As a presupposition.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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27-12-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: Would you claim a god doesn't exist for sure?
In order to claim anything to be supernatural with confidence, you have to know all of the laws of nature. Since we don't, I never ever trust anyone to say something is supernatural.

I have a strong belief that the God of the Bible is NOT REAL. I am not as confident with other deities, but I have my reasonable doubts.

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