Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
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25-06-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 01:10 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 12:42 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Alright man being vegan does not make you more moral. I don't get why many vegans think about treating cows right, but then sit down as people who are getting shot in gang violence are ignored or not as important. Before you sit down and think about helping cows be safe, let us get pass getting our own damn species safe. KBig Grin?

This is a false and ironic assumption that I hear about a lot. That vegans-in general- care more about cows than humans. The ironic part is that the language comes right from the perspective that humans are separate from animals. Humans are animals. Interestingly enough I didn't get I to civil rights and anti-racist activism until after I went vegan. The impact it had on my world view led to greater empathy over all it would seem.

Also, one doesn't have to expend energy on being vegan, just on proactive activism and outreach. But not everyone is so inclined and I don't expect them to be.

Not really. I say this because to a human, humans should be more important than cows. I am not saying humans are separate from animals, trust me when I right info on humans I write about them no different then I do other animals, the problem is that vegans should not care much about animals until humans are taken care of.

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25-06-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 12:35 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  Damn everyone starts raging when Veganism comes up. Is it cognitive dissonance that makes people lash out? Do they feel threatened by people who have decided to reject the status quo for a stronger moral foundation?

Yeah...you're acting like the fucking pope.

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25-06-2014, 06:09 PM
Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 04:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 12:35 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  Damn everyone starts raging when Veganism comes up. Is it cognitive dissonance that makes people lash out? Do they feel threatened by people who have decided to reject the status quo for a stronger moral foundation?

Yeah...you're acting like the fucking pope.

Not constructive.
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25-06-2014, 06:30 PM
Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 04:19 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 01:10 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  This is a false and ironic assumption that I hear about a lot. That vegans-in general- care more about cows than humans. The ironic part is that the language comes right from the perspective that humans are separate from animals. Humans are animals. Interestingly enough I didn't get I to civil rights and anti-racist activism until after I went vegan. The impact it had on my world view led to greater empathy over all it would seem.

Also, one doesn't have to expend energy on being vegan, just on proactive activism and outreach. But not everyone is so inclined and I don't expect them to be.

Not really. I say this because to a human, humans should be more important than cows. I am not saying humans are separate from animals, trust me when I right info on humans I write about them no different then I do other animals, the problem is that vegans should not care much about animals until humans are taken care of.

Thanks for explaining. Well first I would have to reiterate that Veganism doesn't require one to go out and protest or donate money or spend any extra time or energy. It mostly revolves around consumerism and just implies that you do whatever you can to remove animal derived goods from your grocery list including clothing and cosmetics. So, even if the issue was this dichotomy of devoting resources either to human or non-human animal causes, veganism would have no impact either way on my ability to support these causes.

The other problem here is that this dichotomy is false. In the simplest version there are actually three choices, spend your time and money on humans in need, spend your time and money on non-humans in need, or do neither and keep it for yourself which is perfectly ok. I imagine most people choose that third option and do nothing and that's fine. If it's between doing nothing and helping non-human animals, then the animal activist is certainly worthy of praise. If it's between doing nothing and supporting human rights causes, then the human rights activist is a real hero. If it's a matter of choosing between humans and non-humans, then which should take priority can probably be debated until we breath our last That brings my to the last line in your comment for which I would just need explanation in order to address.

Why do you think humans should be prioritized over non-humans when someone actually needs to make that choice?
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25-06-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 06:30 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 04:19 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Not really. I say this because to a human, humans should be more important than cows. I am not saying humans are separate from animals, trust me when I right info on humans I write about them no different then I do other animals, the problem is that vegans should not care much about animals until humans are taken care of.

Thanks for explaining. Well first I would have to reiterate that Veganism doesn't require one to go out and protest or donate money or spend any extra time or energy. It mostly revolves around consumerism and just implies that you do whatever you can to remove animal derived goods from your grocery list including clothing and cosmetics. So, even if the issue was this dichotomy of devoting resources either to human or non-human animal causes, veganism would have no impact either way on my ability to support these causes.

The other problem here is that this dichotomy is false. In the simplest version there are actually three choices, spend your time and money on humans in need, spend your time and money on non-humans in need, or do neither and keep it for yourself which is perfectly ok. I imagine most people choose that third option and do nothing and that's fine. If it's between doing nothing and helping non-human animals, then the animal activist is certainly worthy of praise. If it's between doing nothing and supporting human rights causes, then the human rights activist is a real hero. If it's a matter of choosing between humans and non-humans, then which should take priority can probably be debated until we breath our last That brings my to the last line in your comment for which I would just need explanation in order to address.

Why do you think humans should be prioritized over non-humans when someone actually needs to make that choice?

Because you species should come over all others. What the fuck is a cow anyway? A bovid. It is not a primate like we are, hell we are not even in the same superorder. A human can understand another human better than a cow. Humans work with humans to help each other. There is never a choice where a cow comes above a human ever.

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25-06-2014, 06:41 PM
RE: Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
Same answer as last time: I'd rather chew broken glass. Drinking Beverage

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25-06-2014, 06:50 PM
Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 06:36 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 06:30 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  Thanks for explaining. Well first I would have to reiterate that Veganism doesn't require one to go out and protest or donate money or spend any extra time or energy. It mostly revolves around consumerism and just implies that you do whatever you can to remove animal derived goods from your grocery list including clothing and cosmetics. So, even if the issue was this dichotomy of devoting resources either to human or non-human animal causes, veganism would have no impact either way on my ability to support these causes.

The other problem here is that this dichotomy is false. In the simplest version there are actually three choices, spend your time and money on humans in need, spend your time and money on non-humans in need, or do neither and keep it for yourself which is perfectly ok. I imagine most people choose that third option and do nothing and that's fine. If it's between doing nothing and helping non-human animals, then the animal activist is certainly worthy of praise. If it's between doing nothing and supporting human rights causes, then the human rights activist is a real hero. If it's a matter of choosing between humans and non-humans, then which should take priority can probably be debated until we breath our last That brings my to the last line in your comment for which I would just need explanation in order to address.

Why do you think humans should be prioritized over non-humans when someone actually needs to make that choice?

Because you species should come over all others. What the fuck is a cow anyway? A bovid. It is not a primate like we are, hell we are not even in the same superorder. A human can understand another human better than a cow. Humans work with humans to help each other. There is never a choice where a cow comes above a human ever.

Most of the time you don't have to make that choice and that's a good thing. So the value you have placed on humans is based on your ability to communicate with and relate to them?
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25-06-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 06:50 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 06:36 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Because you species should come over all others. What the fuck is a cow anyway? A bovid. It is not a primate like we are, hell we are not even in the same superorder. A human can understand another human better than a cow. Humans work with humans to help each other. There is never a choice where a cow comes above a human ever.

Most of the time you don't have to make that choice and that's a good thing. So the value you have placed on humans is based on your ability to communicate with and relate to them?

Oh lets not forget they are my species, and that I can not survive without other humans around.

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25-06-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 06:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  Same answer as last time: I'd rather chew broken glass. Drinking Beverage

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25-06-2014, 07:17 PM
Would you rather be a vegan or a vegetarian
(25-06-2014 06:54 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 06:50 PM)KyleRuby Wrote:  Most of the time you don't have to make that choice and that's a good thing. So the value you have placed on humans is based on your ability to communicate with and relate to them?

Oh lets not forget they are my species, and that I can not survive without other humans around.

That's kind of extreme as I don't think humans are going to go extinct if we decide to fight for animal rights. But whatever. We are being distracted by a red herring. Like I said Veganism doesn't really have an effect there as it doesn't require a proactive role. It is interesting to talk about though. It's like the hypothetical that many love to throw out: if a building is burning down and you could save either a puppy or a human baby, which would you choose? I agree we are a social species who depend on one another quite a bit and if it were matter of saving the species I would probably choose us. Fortunately we're not doing too bad in that regard.

Anyway good talk. Even if neither side is swayed it's still a learning experience. Thanks to those of you who commented with mature and constructive input and criticism. As you can imagine I take a lot of virtual beatings for my beliefs. They're worse in the Christian Right crowds though their arguments usually aren't as clever or well informed.
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