Would you want to go to heaven?
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04-06-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 11:41 AM)Geopum Wrote:  So there is a sort of heaven you'd be happy with? Like if heaven wasn't the traditional type, but if one was made for you, personally? Where you would have the exact amount of conflict and activity for your life to be maximally good?

For this hypothetical, consider that the alternative is oblivion, not Hell.

That's a no brainer. Oblivion is the only relief from the interminable tedium of either heaven or hell. ... I'm reminded of a song.




#sigh
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04-06-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
If heaven = no hangovers and no STDs, and a 25 year old body in perpetuity ... I'd take it now, please. But, then I'd still want to pass into oblivion whenever I finally get bored with it all.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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04-06-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 01:43 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  If heaven = no hangovers and no STDs, and a 25 year old body in perpetuity ... I'd take it now, please. But, then I'd still want to pass into oblivion whenever I finally get bored with it all.

How about a heaven where boredom does not exist?

It's funny how such questions make you realize how finite everything is and how vital that is for life to have a purpose. Imperfection, limits, struggles, they're all part of what makes us human, of what gives our lives meaning. Would we have invented a religion if we never got bored? If we never died?

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-Guybrush Threepwood-
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04-06-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
Heaven is like the eye of a hurricane, a place of peace when all about you is a storm.
Or perhaps an oasis in a vast desert.

Each of these natural places have within them spaces where it's calm and refreshing.
Given the middle east, you can easily see where this concept of heaven and hell comes from.
Oasis & hot desert

Heavens are nice places to visit and relax while on vacations, but home is where the heart is.
Unfortunately for us, our hearts only live for a short time and eternity is not something I would ever want to endure.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-06-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
If it was any pleasurable eternal existence I could dream up for myself - yes. If it was pluckin' the ol' harp, bouncing around on clouds, basking in the glory of Old Smitey himself while everyone I knew and loved during my life burned in a lake of fire. No thanks, I'll pass.
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04-06-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 11:41 AM)Geopum Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 11:37 AM)yakherder Wrote:  If heaven were assumed to exist, then I'd want to go there simply because the alternative would be hell. I'd be pissed off about my lack of options, though. It sounds like a boring existence. A life (or afterlife) without challenges is void of purpose. We're defined by the problems we overcome in an effort to survive, and it is along those lines which we evolved. Every feeling we have is based on a need to overcome some kind of obstacle that would have otherwise resulted in our extinction. Why would I want to just sit around in paradise staring at flowers and rainbows and shit like that all day? The biggest problem I'd encounter is having to learn to play a harp. On the flipside, hell, a life with insurmountable challenges, would probably suck worse.

Valhalla I could deal with.

So there is a sort of heaven you'd be happy with? Like if heaven wasn't the traditional type, but if one was made for you, personally? Where you would have the exact amount of conflict and activity for your life to be maximally good?

For this hypothetical, consider that the alternative is oblivion, not Hell.



I have zero interest in living for eternity even with all the different scenarios you mentioned. The thought of living for gazillion, bazillion, quatrillion years is a sick nightmare and anyone who fervently wishes for such an afterlife is crazy.

You know what they say about wishes, "be careful what you wish for.....it just MIGHT come true."

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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04-06-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Would you want to go to heaven if it were real?

It depends.

What is Heaven? Or which heaven? The of one of modern conceptual design? Gated community, where you get fly around on clouds with angel wings. I could see this becoming very boring especially after the first century or two.

Or the heaven that's described in the bible. As being a mansion with lots of rooms. Where you spend eternity simply praising "God" This was also said to be just beyond the firmament.
[Image: Flammarion-Woodcut-Old.jpg]

Or the halls of Valhalla, where you spend every day drinking and fighting until the coming of Ragnarok.

Or maybe the Greek/Roman after life. Hades. Where every day is a dull day.

Or the Egyptian Journey. Spending your afterlife journeying to the place know as heaven. Fighting monsters and hazards along the way. Only to be judged by a guy with a silly beard, that will judge you with a rock and feather.

What if my conception of heaven was exactly like my life now. Would I know the difference?

(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Why do you want to go to heaven?

Well i don't know yet. I still don't know what heaven is. I could make up one. But that wouldn't really be fare since it's just me making it up. It be like me describing the north pole as a warm tropical oasis, palms trees and coconuts with little palm trees. But that wouldn't make it true. Maybe you could point me in the direction i would need to look to see heaven. Third star from the left straight on till morning?

Or maybe i could look around take an estimate on the real estate market before i move in?

Most of the time when Christian theists describe heaven it offers everything that earth already provides.

Maybe heaven will dull, or boring. Maybe I get a room in heaven next to the noisy ice machine. Maybe it doesn't have any WiFi!

I know! Have your God send me a brochure.

(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Let us say that heaven was a place where you live forever and your life is basically perfect.

So now I'm an immortal?

I would be a god in this sense. I can alter reality so that it fits my ideals of perfection. I can't die since as you explained I live forever I.E. I'm immortal.

What would be the standard of a perfect life?

(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  There you are watched over constantly by an omniscient, omnipotent and ominbenevolent god who does sincerely care about your well being and ensures that everything is good.

This wouldn't be perfection now would it. My own personal stalker.

Because now I've got some creepy guy checking me out for the rest of eternity. Why would he have to watch over me? I can't die or hurt myself. I kind of already dead.

Dose this mean I still can't play with myself?

[Image: 2013-06-04-2013-6-04.jpg]

(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Would you be frightened by the fact that such a being would have constant access to the contents of your mind and see everything you did?

Well let's just ask the majority of people when they found out the Government was spying on us. Taping phone calls, saving personal photos, recording documents.

Not to happy.

Why would he need to see into my mind? Isn't he already suppose to be all knowing? What else would surprise him?

(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Or the fact that you'd be living forever?

Now we can't really say this is a fact.

(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Does the idea of having your life being perfect, or far better than it is now, frighten you?

Frighten? All of these assumptions are not demonstrable.

What would be a standard of Perfection?

What would be better then my life now?

Why can't we make this One life that we know we have? The best it can be?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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04-06-2015, 04:19 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 11:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Without challenges and difficulties there's no impetus to learn or improve.
There is still pure curiosity. I find that plenty of impetus. I find constant challenges / difficulties / hassles to be a disincentive, particularly when in practice the connection between effort / intention and outcomes is as flaky as it generally is.

This is also uncomfortably similar to theist arguments that attempt to wiggle out of the POE by stating that without suffering there can be no enjoyment. I look at it this way:

Horrific suffering ====> Neutral ==> Bliss

If it's contrast you're after, there's plenty to be had even if everything to the left of "Neutral" is lopped off.

The other impetus is to rid the world of suffering to the fullest possible extent. If suffering is somehow either necessary or ennobling then that whole motivation goes out the window.
(04-06-2015 11:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I can't imagine anything more boring than the typical portrayal of heaven.

If the ability to be bored is taken away then I'm no longer me and that's not appealing either. If this heaven includes eternal praising of the head honcho then it is as Hitchens described it, an eternal North Korea.

The idea that life is finite is much more reassuring than any heaven I've ever heard of. It'd be nice to be able to extend it and to be able to decide when enough is enough, but I'll take oblivion over eternity any day.
On this we totally agree. I have always said that most afterlife concepts are pleasing and ill thought-out fantasies of a glorified life on earth, magically minus all frustrations and pain. How convenient. Who is to say that any afterlife would not be SSDD (Same Shit, Different Dimension)? If god can't get his act together in this life, why should we expect him to do so in the next?

So like you, I feel it's nice to have options including longevity of life along with decent quality of life. I'd take an affordable pill with no side effects that would convey biological immortality upon me. But I would reserve the right to decide if and when I wish to have more experiences.

What are you supposed to do anyway if you grow weary of heaven? Kill yourself? You're already dead. Being trapped in any prison -- even a gilded one -- is ultimately its own hell.
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04-06-2015, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 04:43 PM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 10:52 AM)Geopum Wrote:  Would you want to go to heaven if it were real? Why do you want to go to heaven?

Let us say that heaven was a place where you live forever and your life is basically perfect. There you are watched over constantly by an ominscient, omnipotent and ominbenevolent god who does sincerely care about your well being and ensures that everything is good.

Would you be frightened by the fact that such a being would have constant access to the contents of your mind and see everything you did? Or the fact that you'd be living forever? Does the idea of having your life being perfect, or far better than it is now, frighten you?

This I struggle with. I have dealt with depression for a long time and I would likely jump at the chance to live a life without it. Though I would also like to be there to question God. Ask why such things have to be so. My curiosity would want to learn more.

Though I don't enjoy the thought of something always knowing you I wouldn't mind if this God was good just would ask why our world was so bad. I don't know if I could enjoy life forever. You would eventually know everything, eventually do everything and while I believe you can spend countless hours on different things this is eternity they will eventually lose charm unless you swap them around and even then you will accomplish everything eventually.

I see the perfect life as alluring but I believe most humans do because in the end we all fear death. Actually more so we fear not existing as ourselves anymore.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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04-06-2015, 05:59 PM
RE: Would you want to go to heaven?
(04-06-2015 11:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  If God was a truly loving being who accepted all people (regardless of religion/sexual preference), did not want animals sacrificed in his honor, protected us from suffering and the forces of nature, was against war and destruction, did not expect to be worshiped, wanted all people treated equally, and did not threaten people with eternal damnation and allowed everyone and everything into heaven...then yes, I would want to go to heaven.

Mankind is increasingly achieving all the above, making "heaven" real in the here and now, not something you have to wait for and even after waiting perhaps miss out on.

That's perhaps the greatest flaw with the "heaven" concept, that it cannot be attained by our own efforts in our own lifetimes. That flaw alone is reason to discard the concept as not just useless but destructively inhibiting.

Thank you JB, for showing heaven's portrait for what it is: our aspirations for life, not death.
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