Would you work in a munitions factory?
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01-02-2012, 12:10 AM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
(31-01-2012 10:41 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(31-01-2012 09:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I've spent my entire career working in the R&D section of the world's largest munitions factory so I recuse myself.

You still could tell: if you started out today, with your current mind, 25 years younger, how would you choose in the scenario of the OP. Huh

I wouldn't change a thing.

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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01-02-2012, 01:28 AM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
Munitions factory!

I have no moral issues at all.
'Where there's war - there's money to be made!'

"I feel like the weight of the world has been lifted from my shoulders...
Thanks for getting off my back!"
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01-02-2012, 06:54 AM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
(01-02-2012 12:10 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I wouldn't change a thing.

GirlyMan, you didn't actually answer my question.

If you were young again, starting out, and you had ONLY those three choices as listed in the OP (and you HAD TO choose one of them), which would you choose and why?
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01-02-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
I morally object to land mines- primarily because they get left in the ground for children and innocent people to find long after the war has ended, but secondarily because children and innocent people can find them even while the war is going on.

If there were no land mines being produced at the factory, I'd be willing to take the job. I'm aware that bombs, missiles, and bullets can take innocent lives too but there's typically a human making the decision to fire first. Whereas with landmines they just remain armed and ready for a hapless person to step on them.

Knowing that landmines would be produced in the factory I'd choose the bakery.

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01-02-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
(30-01-2012 06:42 AM)Zat Wrote:  All else being equal, the pay in the munitions factory is double of what you would make at the other places.
Which job would you take?

Zat, obviously you think there's some moral question here. Would you please state what the morality case is against taking the munitions factory job? I would like to question the case presented.
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01-02-2012, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2012 01:56 PM by Zat.)
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
(01-02-2012 01:05 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Zat, obviously you think there's some moral question here. Would you please state what the morality case is against taking the munitions factory job? I would like to question the case presented.

Jeff, I can speak only for myself and for my own morality.

I have a very hard time explaining it to young people (I don’t know your age) because they haven’t seen enough yet.

When you reach 71 and you have kept your eyes open all these years, you can’t help seeing a pattern.

And now I have to switch to first person form:

My life is almost over and I have to look back to see what it has been about.

My answer is multifold.

- Develop my potentials as much as I could
- Worship the beauty of this world I was born into
- Worship the power of the human mind to see truth
- Share as much of it as possible with my fellow travelers
- Help those who were not as fortunate as I have been.

In this life there is no room for violence, hate, mutilation, political systems, ideologies, envy, greed, gluttony, power-seeking, brutality.

I look upon the world as a ONE: one planet, multiple living species, one of which is mine. I want to share and share equally.

I know that it is not possible, but in my mind I live in that world and behave as if I was actually living in that world.

I am not a Hungarian, not a Canadian, not a Westerner, not part of any sub-groups – I am a human being living my limited life on this one Planet and trying to make the most of it.

I would never knowingly work in an environment that produces harmful things.

When I go to the store and buy food, I get something from people who worked hard to give me something I need to keep me alive, keep my body healthy and well fed.

I OWE them something in return.

What I owe them has to be equally nourishing to them, equally beneficial to them, to their children, to others.

Land mines are not one of those things. They are made to rip human bodies apart. If I contributed to making them, I would not repay my debt to those people who feed me and cloth me and keep me alive. Rather the opposite.

I know, EVERYTHING can be justified on some level and has been justified, from the beginning of history. By war, by self-defense, by righting a wrong, by purifying a race, by revenge, by god.

Justifications are dime a dozen.

The facts remain as they have always been: nothing ever changes because the fight started when the other hit me back.

Now I can get involved in the justification game and start producing poison gas and anthrax and torturing instruments – or I can just get out of the entire game and say: “I will do no harm”.

Smile
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01-02-2012, 04:52 PM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
Senator Pat Geary: I despise your masquerade, the dishonest way you pose yourself. You and your whole fucking family.
Michael Corleone: We're both part of the same hypocrisy, senator, but never think it applies to my family.

Zat, I don't doubt anything you say, but I believe it's a bit of liberal puffery to act like taking a stand on landmines is somehow meaningful or admirable.

You probably live in a country where your personal safety and that of your family has been safeguarded by a military force. Wherever you live, whatever you have, you have it in some measure due to military force. You have benefited from the killing of others. To now judge the means chosen by that military force, and condemn them if their best professional judgement is to use landmines, is unethical and therefore amoral.

"Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"

The above applies to me as well. We're both part of the same hypocrisy. I'm 51 by the way.
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01-02-2012, 04:57 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2012 05:23 PM by Zat.)
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
Jeff, EVERYTHING can be 'justified' by well chosen bullshit.

You choose yours (see above), I choose mine.

Let's just leave it at that. Big Grin
(01-02-2012 04:52 PM)Jeff Wrote:  You probably live in a country where your personal safety and that of your family has been safeguarded by a military force.

I can’t help myself.

I could give you the long version but here is the short one:

The protection I need from your military is to protect me from the enraged people around the globe where your military is planting mines.

I never asked for the protection of your military.

If and when I personally get attacked, I will do the best I can to defend myself.

Until then, I don’t give a flying fuck about you guys killing each other back and forth over the globe for your own stupid reasons.

Just leave me the hell out of it.

The military offering me protection is the same racket as the one the Mafia is offering to productive merchants who just want to make an honest living: “I will protect you from arson if you pay me $XXX each month”.

I don’t owe you guys anything – just get out of my face with your wars and genocides and bullshit ‘justification’.

Angry
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01-02-2012, 06:49 PM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
It would be helpful to know where you live so I could understand the "you" vs "us."
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01-02-2012, 07:10 PM
RE: Would you work in a munitions factory?
(01-02-2012 06:49 PM)Jeff Wrote:  It would be helpful to know where you live so I could understand the "you" vs "us."

I live on Planet Earth, the same Planet that armies have been marching on, back and forth, from the beginning of time, killing raping, pillaging -- each army seeing their 'cause' justified by what the previous army did to them.

This is the true tragedy of the human species.

This a a cycle that has no beginning and no end, other than people like me refusing to play the game once and for all.

Don't even try to justify blowing legs and arms off of little children all over the world, in the name of the righteous protection racket of an organization that is taking all the resources out of people's lives.

Maybe, if you stop shooting back at the person who is shooting back at you, some sanity will dawn on the human species.

Try to sit down and work things out without trying to dominate and rip off the other side.

And all that rant above goes for all the armies in the world, whatever the colour of their uniform and the stripes on their flags are.

Grow up children and stop bullying each other in the sand box!

Rolleyes
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