Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
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05-10-2013, 03:33 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
I guess that's why they make Fords and Chevys. Everybody's entitled to their opinion...

(05-10-2013 03:16 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-10-2013 01:26 AM)Chopdoc Wrote:  This is the face of ignorance, and Comfort, Hovind, McDowell, and their kind perpetuate it and prosper from it. American now ranks something like 37th in the world in student proficiency in math and the hard sciences!

According to the 2009 PISA report the USA is 30th in mathematics and 15th in reading.

China is numero uno in both.

That isn't due to Comfort et al that is due to a combination of factors the most salient being:
--the modernisation/industrialisation of China
--the relatively recent participation of China in these surveys
--the dysgenic secular trend produced by the inverse correlation between IQ and the fertility rate
--the compounding of the dysgenic secular trend from the post-war increase in the female participation rate in employment


Quote:Most adults in this country do not have any idea what evolution is because it is such a hot button topic to teach in schools.

And because they have no interest in finding out. Today's highschool graduate is spoilt informationally; that they refuse to educate themselves when their formal education ends is symptomatic of deeper problems that Comfort and co. have nothing to do with.

I would suggest that Comfort is an effect rather than a cause of these factors.

Quote:People like Comfort exploit this general level of American ignorance and rational people here are trying to push back against that. He's well aware of evidence that refutes his rubbish, but he's counting on his choir members not doing any fact-checking.

Yes that is a manifestation of confirmation bias and that isn't caused by Ray Comfort. If the USA educational system fails to impart clear-thinking skills to students then that is a major systemic failing that will also express itelf in the popularity of such things as TV psychics (yes we have them here also, thanks USA) and pseudoscience. The rational people aren't the ones with the problem so posting diatribes here and on Youtube isn't going to help anyone. It might feel good and you might be able to convince yourself that you are helping but I don't think it will make any difference.

Quote:I understand perfectly well Ray's mindset. I lived it for about 30 years, and I understand his mandate and his compulsion to do what he does. I take exception to his methods and his character. By any human moral standard it is wrong to intentionally deceive others for profit, especially when it does such damage.

Ray Comfort isn't that powerful, the people that buy his books and DVDs have already disengaged themselves from any sort of intellectual culture.

Quote:And if you think Ray Comfort just doesn't understand scientific theory, then he's incredibly incompetent and has no business or place in the public forum. Hell, I'm no scientist. Don't claim to be. I went to public school and got a terrible education in science by awful teachers, but I can work a search engine and read a book. I learned more about evolution at the public library than Comfort has apparently bothered to explore, even though he's an "expert" in Christian circles!

What is Comfort's forum? The web, his books and DVDs and any privately owned TV or radio station that is stupid enough to invite him. It isn't as if Comfort commands the public square and he can't be avoided. He actually has to be sought out and if you are seeking him out then you already share his worldview.

You can't deprive him of his right to sell crappy books and DVDs and to have an online presence. If he is making regular appearances on USA radio and TV then send those broadcasters letters of complaint and if they are private entities then refuse to buy the advertised products. That will actually make a difference.

Quote:It doesn't matter what he believes is truth. Nonsense is still nonsense.

No in that regard it is irrelevant but in terms of defaming him it is relevant. If he believes what he preaches then he isn't being dishonest.

Quote:He is trying to do an end-around the academic process of peer review and examination and get his bullshit taught in schools, by appealing to some sense of sacred duty. And I call bullshit. You're right about him having a pre-existing audience. That's the very problem here. Too many ignorant people will hear him and believe him.
Wretched indeed.

Yes but those efforts have been defeated in the past and they will continue to be defeated and that isn't because a bunch of people on an atheist forum have downvoted a Ray Comfort video or because the "Rational Response Squad" got people to say they deny the Holy Ghost.

Comfort didn't create the flock of ignorant people that you refer to. He found them that way and that is the nub of the problem and that can't be simply attributed to the difficulty of teaching evolution in USA highschools.
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05-10-2013, 03:54 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
(05-10-2013 03:25 AM)Chopdoc Wrote:  Here's another study with graphs of test results/scores:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...-and-math/

Just part of the reason I take exception to R. C., Creation Today and other org's that promote junk science and try to politicize it. We see the results of their "efforts" in the declining intellectual landscape of our country.

In the United States, for a significant percentage of our student population the native language is not English. If you normalized the scores by only considering students who spoke just the native language of the country how would we fair?
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05-10-2013, 04:30 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
I'll let you and Chippy argue minutiae and the myriad variables of "what if." That sort of intellectual masturbation bores me. I've made my point.
Cheers! Drinking Beverage

(05-10-2013 03:54 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-10-2013 03:25 AM)Chopdoc Wrote:  Here's another study with graphs of test results/scores:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...-and-math/

Just part of the reason I take exception to R. C., Creation Today and other org's that promote junk science and try to politicize it. We see the results of their "efforts" in the declining intellectual landscape of our country.

In the United States, for a significant percentage of our student population the native language is not English. If you normalized the scores by only considering students who spoke just the native language of the country how would we fair?
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05-10-2013, 04:41 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
(05-10-2013 04:30 AM)Chopdoc Wrote:  I'll let you and Chippy argue minutiae and the myriad variables of "what if." That sort of intellectual masturbation bores me. I've made my point.
Cheers! Drinking Beverage

(05-10-2013 03:54 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  In the United States, for a significant percentage of our student population the native language is not English. If you normalized the scores by only considering students who spoke just the native language of the country how would we fair?

Part of your point was based on statistics that can't be relied upon. Now I am not being critical of your point but rather making my own point. If you are going to use statistics to formulate your opinions, then you need to be critical and skeptical of that statistic. Ask yourself what is the actual spread of disparity(because nominal ranking is useless), how were these normalized, did the countries self report, etc.
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05-10-2013, 07:28 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
(04-10-2013 11:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(04-10-2013 11:42 AM)Vulpix Wrote:  Thoughts on this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYnzu26ifYA

Sine comments have been disabled, feel free to send the video a flurry of downvotes.

There is no one that actually understood evolution by natural selection, watched/read Ray Comfort and then abandoned it in favour of YEC or OEC. Ray Comfort is not speaking to atheists he is speaking to his flock, he is preaching to the choir. There is no point in engaging Ray Comfort. Comfort and his ilk are low hanging fruit because what he produces is intended for the consumption of YEC/OEC Christians, its function is to reinforce faith. Treating Comfort as a serious critic of evolution is culturally naive, it is like a tourist completely misunderstanding the etiquette, mores and norms of a foreign culture. Comfort's constituency is comprised of people with a very peculiar worldview that they arrived at independently of any consideration of speciation. Comfort is concerned with evolution simply because his constituents will encounter it on TV documentaries and perhaps in the textbooks of their children (that are likely homeschooled and evolution will be presented as just one view amongst others) and he is just reassuring these people (there is apun there but I won't make it) on the soundness of their worldview.

Would you argue with the members of a cargo cult? Are their beliefs worth debunking? Do the Melanesian cargo cults represent a serious and credible threat to science and technology? The cargo cultists are waiting for freight planes, Comfort's constituency is waiting for Jesus.

Also why is everyone bothered by Chrstian literalists but uncocerned with Jewish literalists? Orthodox Jews also believe in the literal truth of Genesis.

I am bothered by those Christians because of their numbers and political clout.

If we had tens of millions of politically active cargo cultists or Orthodox Jews, I'd be more concerned about them, too.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-10-2013, 08:41 PM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
Point taken. Ignore the sentence with the stat (one sentence in a 2 paragraph post) if it poses a problem for you.

(05-10-2013 04:41 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-10-2013 04:30 AM)Chopdoc Wrote:  I'll let you and Chippy argue minutiae and the myriad variables of "what if." That sort of intellectual masturbation bores me. I've made my point.
Cheers! Drinking Beverage

Part of your point was based on statistics that can't be relied upon. Now I am not being critical of your point but rather making my own point. If you are going to use statistics to formulate your opinions, then you need to be critical and skeptical of that statistic. Ask yourself what is the actual spread of disparity(because nominal ranking is useless), how were these normalized, did the countries self report, etc.
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06-10-2013, 09:10 PM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
(05-10-2013 07:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am bothered by those Christians because of their numbers and political clout.

If we had tens of millions of politically active cargo cultists or Orthodox Jews, I'd be more concerned about them, too.

The "Israel lobby"--comprised mainly of Jews--is influential with regards to US foreign policy. AIPAC is very politically active.
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06-10-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
Back to the OP:
Worth a look, if you haven't seen it.



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07-10-2013, 06:10 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
So he is saying that evolution of species is not evolution and only evolution of a "kind" is? So he is looking for a catdog?

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07-10-2013, 07:58 AM
RE: Wretched: Ray Comfort responds to atheist accusations.
(07-10-2013 06:10 AM)DoubtingDragon Wrote:  So he is saying that evolution of species is not evolution and only evolution of a "kind" is? So he is looking for a catdog?

The only evidence they want to accept evolution is the exact evidence that would disprove evolution. A crocoduck is precisely what evolution tells us we should not see...



[Image: Crocoduck.jpg]

^^ This is NOT evolution. ^^

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