Written History.
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02-02-2013, 08:39 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 08:33 PM)Nappa Wrote:  
(02-02-2013 08:32 PM)kim Wrote:  That didn't answer the question. This is lame. I'm going for pizza. Dodgy
The truth is often lame.


Your 'truth' is certainly lame.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 08:36 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I think the OP is quite an interesting point. Anyone who believes the powers that be don't fudge the portrayal of recent events to suit there own ends from time to time would be pretty gullible, democratic systems force those in power to make such lies by their very nature.

Unfortunately pursuing this leads us into the realm of conspiracy theories. They present a problem for me. By their very definition they rely on going against the evidence, after all it wouldn't be a conspiracy theory if it followed the evidence. However, as someone who considers themselves a rational person I try to avoid going against the evidence in life. This means I avoid conspiracy theories altogether, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mind-boggling conspiracies out there.

I'd be interested to hear other people's views on this though. How do we decide what official accounts to accept and which to reject (I suppose I should actually ask: How should we decide what official accounts to accept and which to reject? The answer to "how do we" is that mostly we believe the ones we want to believe, whether we realise this subconsciously or not)?
Conspiracy theories with any weight behind them offer counter evidence, in a sense you wouldn't be 'going against' the evidence but rather seeing which evidence outweighs the other. Would you consider the holocaust to be a mind boggling conspiracy if it turned out to be fake?
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02-02-2013, 08:44 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 08:48 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Written History.
I agree with you entirely and you are right... up to the very last passage where you of course bring out your point.

You are not being ostracized for questioning.. Questioning, and coming to assert alternate possibilities as the actual reality are separate steps. There is a distinction that should be acknowledged inbetween.

Conspiracy ideas that have counter evidence in their hand usually have counter evidence in their hand as well. The issue is where people chose to stop questioning.. sometimes people stop right away when given the story, many who like to jump on conspiracy bandwagons like to stop questioning as soon as they see an argument brought up that is counter to the general view, then they seem to stop questioning and actually become unskeptical, while they could delve further to find more material that questions what they think.. One shouldn't be hyper skeptical to not accept anything ever or settle to a point of never ceasing, but there are layers upon ideas of what information holds more weight.

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02-02-2013, 08:48 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 08:42 PM)Nappa Wrote:  Conspiracy theories with any weight behind them offer counter evidence, in a sense you wouldn't be 'going against' the evidence but rather seeing which evidence outweighs the other.

If the overall evidence was in favour of a conspiracy theory then would it still be classed as a conspiracy theory? I kinda think that to be a true conspiracy theory it has to be against the evidence, otherwise it would just be an event.

Nappa Wrote:Would you consider the holocaust to be a mind boggling conspiracy if it turned out to be fake?

If I found out that a recognised recent historical event, with mounds of evidence in favour and very little against, that is accepted and taught about by most of the world, and involves the mass genocide of 6,000,000 people, was actually faked and never happened would I find it mind-boggling? Of course I would, the sheer effort needed to falsify something so huge and so convincingly would be staggering.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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02-02-2013, 08:55 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 08:48 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  If the overall evidence was in favour of a conspiracy theory then would it still be classed as a conspiracy theory? I kinda think that to be a true conspiracy theory it has to be against the evidence, otherwise it would just be an event.


If I found out that a recognized recent historical event, with mounds of evidence in favour and very little against, that is accepted and taught about by most of the world, and involves the mass genocide of 6,000,000 people, was actually faked and never happened would I find it mind-boggling? Of course I would, the sheer effort needed to falsify something so huge and so convincingly would be staggering.
Yes they're still classified as conspiracy theories.

Eeeeeh... all it really would take to falsify it would be misleading pictures, forced 'confessions', and a few people to lie about the circumstances they experienced. Then you could just say that you have all these 'witnesses' who support the same testimony even though you don't actually have their testimony.
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02-02-2013, 09:03 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 08:55 PM)Nappa Wrote:  Yes they're still classified as conspiracy theories.

Eeeeeh... all it really would take to falsify it would be misleading pictures, forced 'confessions', and a few people to lie about the circumstances they experienced. Then you could just say that you have all these 'witnesses' who support the same testimony even though you don't actually have their testimony.

You'd also need a large number of people to disappear. Maybe not 6,000,000 but a large enough number that people stop counting before they realise there aren't 6,000,000. Plus an event like that is gonna be investigated a billion times. You need to tie up every loose end well enough that none of the people investigating exactly what happened and how and when don't realise that something is off. Just one small detail overlooked could bring the whole thing crashing down.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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02-02-2013, 09:08 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 09:03 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  You'd also need a large number of people to disappear. Maybe not 6,000,000 but a large enough number that people stop counting before they realise there aren't 6,000,000. Plus an event like that is gonna be investigated a billion times. You need to tie up every loose end well enough that none of the people investigating exactly what happened and how and when don't realise that something is off. Just one small detail overlooked could bring the whole thing crashing down.
Or you could just say 6,000,000 people died when in fact they didn't. Besides the amount of those who died from the diseases in all of the camps which I estimate to be at least a hundred thousand would be a large enough number. Also people did investigate the holocaust... aaaand then they made it illegal to question or deny the holocaust... or 'genocides' which was just another term that actually meant the holocaust.
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02-02-2013, 09:12 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 09:03 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(02-02-2013 08:55 PM)Nappa Wrote:  Yes they're still classified as conspiracy theories.

Eeeeeh... all it really would take to falsify it would be misleading pictures, forced 'confessions', and a few people to lie about the circumstances they experienced. Then you could just say that you have all these 'witnesses' who support the same testimony even though you don't actually have their testimony.

You'd also need a large number of people to disappear. Maybe not 6,000,000 but a large enough number that people stop counting before they realise there aren't 6,000,000. Plus an event like that is gonna be investigated a billion times. You need to tie up every loose end well enough that none of the people investigating exactly what happened and how and when don't realise that something is off. Just one small detail overlooked could bring the whole thing crashing down.


There were 11,000,000 killed, 6,000,000 Jews.

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02-02-2013, 09:13 PM
RE: Written History.
(02-02-2013 09:08 PM)Nappa Wrote:  Or you could just say 6,000,000 people died when in fact they didn't. Besides the amount of those who died from the diseases in all of the camps which I estimate to be at least a hundred thousand would be a large enough number. Also people did investigate the holocaust... aaaand then they made it illegal to question or deny the holocaust... or 'genocides' which was just another term that actually meant the holocaust.

It's illegal in some countries, not all. But I take your point on that, Germany outlawing the questioning of the holocaust did little to aid in impartial investigations. However, Germany is the country with nothing obvious to gain from faking it. For the allied forces it helped to legitimise their cause, they haven't banned the questioning of it though (at least as far as I know, the UK definitely hasn't). What would Germany gain by falsifying something that seriously discredited themselves (to put it mildly)?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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02-02-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: Written History.
Too bad the actual calculated demographic AND population impact the Holocaust marked on Europe can't be explained with 100,000 missing persons.

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