Wrongful birth
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18-12-2013, 08:10 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(17-12-2013 05:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 05:32 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  This whole thing bothers me. It bothers me that they'd say "had we known xyz we would have aborted." Geeesh.......... that's just super harsh.
But
They asked for information and was pretty much given faulty information - so yes to the law suit.

I guess bottom line for me is ANY of us parents who have a child - the first thing you do is count fingers and toes and look for abnormalities. Fairly accurate reaction - hoping your baby is 100%. But I would certainly hope had one of mine Not turned out perfect that my reaction wouldn't have been 'eesh I should have aborted this one'.... I mean really?
That's not really the scenario with this tho. They DID try to check and couldn't make an informed decision with bad tests (or lack of the Right tests I should say)

So - yeah I understand the lawsuit. But basically I don't like these people because if you choose to have children you should be prepared to LOVE them unconditionally - tests, no tests, heads-up or none........ rain or shine........broken or perfect. With parenthood - that's the deal.

If these people wanted to be assured 100% of a healthy child with zero problems they could have checked the pedigree of a child waiting for adoption. With No chance of "Shit I wish I'd aborted you" afterwards.


eeesh
*shakes head* Don't like it. I just don't like it.

You are looking at it from the parent's point of view.

But what about the child?

I know I would not want to be born wit an IQ of 70 and never being able to walk. I would wish I had been aborted - if my brain worked well enough to even evaluate my own situation.

Not everyone ends up valuing their own life as much as their parents did. Look at the Israeli situation regarding this... Is it ok to force a kid into a life that sucks?



I am a parent. And I'm not sure but I think if you did a survey asking handicapped people if they'd choose that they'd never had a life at all you might find a different answer than you propose. Even handicapped people may say 'yes I'm glad I was not aborted'. Can't really be sure - can we?

Look I don't disagree about the law suit. They wanted to make an informed decision and was unable to do so due to faulty info. I get that. I just think you either choose to be a parent or you don't. Once they made the choice to BE parents - then parents they must be - whatever that means.

Again - (because no one's commented yet) IF they wanted to be certain 100% they had the option to adopt. To me - adopting and being 100% certain was a better idea than trusting tests.

I happen to fully support abortion. I've had three miscarriages, 3 abortions and 3 live births. Abortion is often a MUCH better choice than having a child that is NOT wanted. (thinking of what the life of the child would be like etc)

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18-12-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(18-12-2013 08:10 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 05:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  You are looking at it from the parent's point of view.

But what about the child?

I know I would not want to be born wit an IQ of 70 and never being able to walk. I would wish I had been aborted - if my brain worked well enough to even evaluate my own situation.

Not everyone ends up valuing their own life as much as their parents did. Look at the Israeli situation regarding this... Is it ok to force a kid into a life that sucks?



I am a parent. And I'm not sure but I think if you did a survey asking handicapped people if they'd choose that they'd never had a life at all you might find a different answer than you propose. Even handicapped people may say 'yes I'm glad I was not aborted'. Can't really be sure - can we?

Look I don't disagree about the law suit. They wanted to make an informed decision and was unable to do so due to faulty info. I get that. I just think you either choose to be a parent or you don't. Once they made the choice to BE parents - then parents they must be - whatever that means.

Again - (because no one's commented yet) IF they wanted to be certain 100% they had the option to adopt. To me - adopting and being 100% certain was a better idea than trusting tests.

I happen to fully support abortion. I've had three miscarriages, 3 abortions and 3 live births. Abortion is often a MUCH better choice than having a child that is NOT wanted. (thinking of what the life of the child would be like etc)

Well, maybe because I am not a parent, I keep looking at this from the kid's point of view. And, it's hard to separate my own from it.

Obviously, a parent who has a handicapped child must want it even more - it is a huge commitment. A handicapped and abused child, in a bad home, that must be most horrific!

Adoption for the handicapped kid is rare. There are some wonderful people who do adopt handicapped kids, but most are wards of the state, for life.

It also depends on what kind of handicap, with many handicaps, the kid will have a life that has some joy in it. But there are also handicaps that make joy impossible.

I wonder what a survey among totally dependent, handicapped adults whose parents are nor able to care for them anymore would show us.

I have had occasion to spend some time in a home for mentally handicapped adults, a friend worked there. Some were happy as can be, happier than we could ever hope to be. These were mostly the ones who stop mental development below ten years of age. There were also permanently depressed and unhappy people, with a variety of mental handicaps. They would get angry at everything and lash out at anyone... and the saddest ones were the ones older than 40 or 50. They had given up - they understood that they would never be able to do anything they longed for. Some would refuse to get dressed, refuse to clean themselves, refuse to eat - it much looked like they were just hoping to curl up and die. That is not allowed though... so they were captives, doomed to endure. I assume they had better lives when the parents were still around, and now they were lost.

It is that experience that continues to stick with me.

Do some parents give birth to known handicapped kids just because the sacrifices make them feel self righteous? Because the occasional progress makes them very happy? Because they value a smile from their kid so much? What about the life of these kids when the parents are too old to care for them anymore? Are the parents who sacrifice so much actually being selfish?

It would be very enlightening to have a survey of adult handicapped, how they feel about it. There is a huge difference between committing suicide and wishing one was never born...

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18-12-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(18-12-2013 09:00 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 08:10 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I am a parent. And I'm not sure but I think if you did a survey asking handicapped people if they'd choose that they'd never had a life at all you might find a different answer than you propose. Even handicapped people may say 'yes I'm glad I was not aborted'. Can't really be sure - can we?

Look I don't disagree about the law suit. They wanted to make an informed decision and was unable to do so due to faulty info. I get that. I just think you either choose to be a parent or you don't. Once they made the choice to BE parents - then parents they must be - whatever that means.

Again - (because no one's commented yet) IF they wanted to be certain 100% they had the option to adopt. To me - adopting and being 100% certain was a better idea than trusting tests.

I happen to fully support abortion. I've had three miscarriages, 3 abortions and 3 live births. Abortion is often a MUCH better choice than having a child that is NOT wanted. (thinking of what the life of the child would be like etc)

Well, maybe because I am not a parent, I keep looking at this from the kid's point of view. And, it's hard to separate my own from it.

Obviously, a parent who has a handicapped child must want it even more - it is a huge commitment. A handicapped and abused child, in a bad home, that must be most horrific!

Adoption for the handicapped kid is rare. There are some wonderful people who do adopt handicapped kids, but most are wards of the state, for life.

It also depends on what kind of handicap, with many handicaps, the kid will have a life that has some joy in it. But there are also handicaps that make joy impossible.

I wonder what a survey among totally dependent, handicapped adults whose parents are nor able to care for them anymore would show us.

I have had occasion to spend some time in a home for mentally handicapped adults, a friend worked there. Some were happy as can be, happier than we could ever hope to be. These were mostly the ones who stop mental development below ten years of age. There were also permanently depressed and unhappy people, with a variety of mental handicaps. They would get angry at everything and lash out at anyone... and the saddest ones were the ones older than 40 or 50. They had given up - they understood that they would never be able to do anything they longed for. Some would refuse to get dressed, refuse to clean themselves, refuse to eat - it much looked like they were just hoping to curl up and die. That is not allowed though... so they were captives, doomed to endure. I assume they had better lives when the parents were still around, and now they were lost.

It is that experience that continues to stick with me.

Do some parents give birth to known handicapped kids just because the sacrifices make them feel self righteous? Because the occasional progress makes them very happy? Because they value a smile from their kid so much? What about the life of these kids when the parents are too old to care for them anymore? Are the parents who sacrifice so much actually being selfish?

It would be very enlightening to have a survey of adult handicapped, how they feel about it. There is a huge difference between committing suicide and wishing one was never born...


Just so we're clear === I'm not proposing anything within this story about adopting a handicapped child. We're starting to compare apples and oranges.

According to the original OP
Law suit due to faulty info where the parents would have aborted instead of having a handicapped kid.

I mentioned adoption for those people as an option to taking ANY chances of having a handicapped child. Follow what I'm saying here? Instead of taking ANY sort of chance on a child that wasn't 100% they **could** have adopted.
That's why I mentioned adoption.

If we need to take the discussion another turn or twist - that's fine I suppose. But I'm just trying to be Clear on what it is I am talking about. I'm still on the original OP.

cheers

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18-12-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(18-12-2013 09:08 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 09:00 AM)Dom Wrote:  Well, maybe because I am not a parent, I keep looking at this from the kid's point of view. And, it's hard to separate my own from it.

Obviously, a parent who has a handicapped child must want it even more - it is a huge commitment. A handicapped and abused child, in a bad home, that must be most horrific!

Adoption for the handicapped kid is rare. There are some wonderful people who do adopt handicapped kids, but most are wards of the state, for life.

It also depends on what kind of handicap, with many handicaps, the kid will have a life that has some joy in it. But there are also handicaps that make joy impossible.

I wonder what a survey among totally dependent, handicapped adults whose parents are nor able to care for them anymore would show us.

I have had occasion to spend some time in a home for mentally handicapped adults, a friend worked there. Some were happy as can be, happier than we could ever hope to be. These were mostly the ones who stop mental development below ten years of age. There were also permanently depressed and unhappy people, with a variety of mental handicaps. They would get angry at everything and lash out at anyone... and the saddest ones were the ones older than 40 or 50. They had given up - they understood that they would never be able to do anything they longed for. Some would refuse to get dressed, refuse to clean themselves, refuse to eat - it much looked like they were just hoping to curl up and die. That is not allowed though... so they were captives, doomed to endure. I assume they had better lives when the parents were still around, and now they were lost.

It is that experience that continues to stick with me.

Do some parents give birth to known handicapped kids just because the sacrifices make them feel self righteous? Because the occasional progress makes them very happy? Because they value a smile from their kid so much? What about the life of these kids when the parents are too old to care for them anymore? Are the parents who sacrifice so much actually being selfish?

It would be very enlightening to have a survey of adult handicapped, how they feel about it. There is a huge difference between committing suicide and wishing one was never born...


Just so we're clear === I'm not proposing anything within this story about adopting a handicapped child. We're starting to compare apples and oranges.

According to the original OP
Law suit due to faulty info where the parents would have aborted instead of having a handicapped kid.

I mentioned adoption for those people as an option to taking ANY chances of having a handicapped child. Follow what I'm saying here? Instead of taking ANY sort of chance on a child that wasn't 100% they **could** have adopted.
That's why I mentioned adoption.

If we need to take the discussion another turn or twist - that's fine I suppose. But I'm just trying to be Clear on what it is I am talking about. I'm still on the original OP.

cheers

Turning and twisting here Smile

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18-12-2013, 11:18 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
I'm not sure how to respond to any of this. Well I do think that every woman has every right to do with her body what she pleases; I'm still kind of shocked and a little disgusted that so many would abort at the thought of the disabled child. It hits a little too close to home for me. I can understand it if someone thought that a disabled child was either too much emotionally or financially to handle but just cause the disability is there that kind of freaks me out, especially if the pregnancy is planned. And I know my case is a bit different, with me being just blind and not truly stymied much other than transportation.
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18-12-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
Oh and you guys the word handicap is kind of rude.
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18-12-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(18-12-2013 11:19 AM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  Oh and you guys the word handicap is kind of rude.


Why? I see 'handicapped' used all the time. Like the handicapped entrance sign for one of the doors on our favorite restaurant up here...... I parked to a sign Handicapped parking the other day at the grocery store......
???
If there's a more PC term being used - I don't know it yet.

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18-12-2013, 11:23 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(18-12-2013 04:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  The line here is clear - it's not about abortion, it's about malpractice.

Anjele is right in that you cannot rely on any doctor just telling you what test results were - you need to educate yourself, know how to read tests, and insist on seeing the actual test results. Then you will notice that a crucial test has not been done.

That applies to everything and has nothing to do with abortion.

However, the law holds the doc responsible and not the patient. Many patients would not be able to assess whether testing was correctly done.

What bothers me about this thread is that everyone thinks about the parents and not the kid. The parents won't be there for the course of the kid's life time. The money from the law suit is not for the parents, it's for the kid, for the entire life span of the kid. Humane care for a severely disabled person is very expensive. We try not to keep our handicapped the way it was done 100 years ago, we do try to keep them alive in a humane way these days. Someone has to pay for that.

To me, the tragedy is not the parent's life, but the kid's. The parents can make decisions for themselves. Unfortunately the kid cannot be asked and can't help itself at all.

Yes...this child won't have much quality to their life but at least if something happens to the parents and the child outlives them -- they wont' have to worry. I would have totally sued them.

This is something that keeps me up at night and my kid isn't too bad. But I don't know if he'll ever be able to live on his own. I would also hate to think that he couldn't hold a job that paid him enough and ended up homeless or something....

Really that shit scares me.

The other way to look at it is this way...If you had a child who was injured in a car accident (totally not your fault) and your otherwise healthy child suffered an injury that would affect them the rest of their life....

Wouldn't you sue?

Is it just the idea of prenatal testing that makes it seem what these parents did seem wrong?

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18-12-2013, 11:23 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
(18-12-2013 11:22 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 11:19 AM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  Oh and you guys the word handicap is kind of rude.


Why? I see 'handicapped' used all the time. Like the handicapped entrance sign for one of the doors on our favorite restaurant up here...... I parked to a sign Handicapped parking the other day at the grocery store......
???
If there's a more PC term being used - I don't know it yet.

First thing I thought of was handicapped parking.

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18-12-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: Wrongful birth
Sue, sue, sue...that'll teach people not to make a mistake.

If two people know they have a strong possibility of passing along a serious genetic abnormality, the responsibility lies with them as to whether or not to take the risk and accept the results of their choice.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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