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20-07-2010, 01:18 PM
I just said to a friend that i dont want to believe to a god of hate pain and punishment.

than he started with arguing with the new testament.. "god of love, tolerance etc..." and i answered him that i dont want to believe in any kind of god...

his answer was "than i cant rly standing around with you anymore"..

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20-07-2010, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2010 01:41 PM by Juppers.)
RE: Wth?
Well, no offence, but 'I don't want to believe in any kind of god' sounds more like childish obstinacy than a conclusion you've reached after careful consideration, mature thinking and use of logic. I'm afraid it's not a very effective way to convince anyone of why you don't think a god exists. I think you should strive to make a better case, and build up more solid arguments, such as evidence to prove that it is highly unlikely for the god of the Bible to exist, or countering the 'god of love' in the New Testament with the hateful, vengeful and murderous deity in the OT. After all they are supposed to be one and the same. Show him that the Bible contains contradictions and inconsistencies. Explain to him that it's not that you don't want to believe in a god (for that would imply that god might, nevertheless, exist), but that you have no reason whatsoever to believe in one. If you do, he might begin to understand your reasons for rejecting the existence of a god. And if he doesn't... well that means he prefers imaginary friends to real ones.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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20-07-2010, 02:50 PM
RE: Wth?
So, you guys stand around? Must be a lot of fun.

You always need to be the smarter side. It isn't that hard to do, with a bit of knowledge and few hours logged watching youtube videos lol. It still won't convince them of anything of course, but at least you can feel better about yourself.
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20-07-2010, 04:39 PM
RE: Wth?
you dont want to believe in any kind of god? thats crazy!
i wish there would be a deistic god that would let every single living being to an afterlife where there is no hate, ignorance, violence, hunger, pain and lots of other things. who wouldnt wish that?

i have truly tried to become a believer again by following the instructions i was given in confirmation school: read the bible and open your heart for jesus...he is knocking already but its impossible for a man who is also an allknowing and allpowerful god to break the goddamn door/lock or make a key!:F
im reading the bible, ive read the three first books of moses +the actions of the apostles and it has only made me into a stronger atheist.

about once in 2-5 years when im trying to sleep i feel like something heavy just dropped trought me. as an even younger kid i tough it was my 'protection angel'... Big Grin the last time i got that feeling was about half a year ago and my first though was ''im having a somekinda sense delusion...strange''
also at least once in 2years i have heard like someone would say my name, first i was afraid im going scitsofrenic but then i found out its quite normal to have small delusions.Smile

i ask too much questions to be a believer, and who would believe in a god who has the ability to create universes but not to open an imaginary door to ones heartBig Grin

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20-07-2010, 05:47 PM
RE: Wth?
Last night I had the most dreadful mental experience I have ever had, I daresay. I considered the prospect of dying. The prospect that everything I knew, loved, though, experienced, remembered would just end. It wasn't like eternal blackness. That would still require an ability to sense this blackness. It would be nothing. It would be beyond thought. It wasn't like going to sleep - there is still an unconscious awareness of the passage of time, not to mention dreaming, while you are asleep. I still shudder as I consider it now. Everything would be meaningless. It would just be over. I can't describe it. It's not like I'd be able to watch what happened next, as people reacted to my death. It's not as if I would become an observer. It would just be done. Over with. Nothing. Bad-a-boom. Human methods of communication cannot describe that inner feeling because it transcends humanity. It is a fear instilled in every living thing, even if they cannot think. It is why we have such a strong instinct of self preservation.

At this point in my life (at 15) I don't think I'd give my life for anyone. Screw them. That feeling is too horrible. Not that I'd be able to experience its horror. "I" as an entity would no longer exist. The whole universe is, to me, a derivative of my experience and observation. As far as I am concerned, not only do I cease to exist, but so does the entire universe. So does the entire concept of existence.

I wish it wasn't true. I hope that biology advances far enough during my lifetime that we can overcome our mortality, or at least live for much much longer. I hope the human race doesn't wipe itself out, only so I can continue living. Besides reproduction, it is after all, my only purpose.

If it isn't scientifically possible, I hope their is an afterlife. I hope its guardian is a logical and forgiving being that can forgive me for doubting it.

But above all, I simply refuse to believe in things that have no evidence. It is upon one of the principles that I carry with me on my meaningless existence. Call it a moral if you wish.
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21-07-2010, 05:08 AM
RE: Wth?
I'm with Juppers here. If you want anyone that disagrees with your beliefs to have any respect for them at all, you need to be able to present an argument that demonstrates a few key points: first, it clearly states your position, second, you need to be ready to back up your point of view, and third, that you are open to discussion on the subject.

The first could be improved by eliminating the word "want" from your statement of not believing in a cruel god. Instead of "I don't want to believe...", try "I don't believe." Do not be timid in the face of questioning. You have as much right to your position as anyone, and also as much right as anyone to articulate. Christians where I live expend a ridiculous amount of energy letting everyone and their pet dog know that they are not ashamed of their belief in Jesus. Good for them. I am not ashamed of my belief in Reason. And I choose to let them know in kind. I never offer my beliefs unless asked, as I believe that evangelism in any form is annoying and ineffective (at best). But when asked, I state myself clearly.

Of course, as most corporate mission statements prove, a strongly worded statement is completely meaningless unless it is backed by words and action. Translation: know your stuff. "I told you so" is the drivel they feed us, and that doesn't work on my four year old, so I am at a loss on how it works on so many others, but I digress. Do you not know your reasons for believing as you do? If you have no real reason, if you have not clearly examined yourself and your motives for feeling the way that you do, how do you know that you truly buy into anything at all? Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." Get to examining, get to researching, get to questioning. Find a way to articulate yourself in a manner that demonstrates that you have contemplated this.

The third point is "Know thy opposition." Do your homework, be open to them if you want them to be open to you. Understand your audience. Why do they feel the way they do? Are you arguing with a person who is worth the energy? The only way you know this is if you ask. By asking them questions, you are gaining insight, not only into them, but into the millions of others that are just as misguided. When you know someone tactics, it is much easier to counter them, or at the very least deflect them to where some modicum of friendship is retained.

Maybe I am being a tad touchy, but I believe that it is the burden of the minority to go up and beyond their ways and their false logic. When you fall into using the same tactics as those that annoy you, how are you any better or worse, or any more right than they? I live in a deeply religious area, and I am constantly having to defend myself. But in the end, I feel that the exercise my brain gets as a result is rewarding enough to go forward and to keep doing my homework.

That being said, I will put this soapbox away and go get ready for work. Thank you to those that bothered to read this.

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