Yay for American gun laws
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-05-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 01:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are conflating the terms 'home invader' and 'burglar'. A home invasion is when the perpetrators know full well that the home is occupied.

My bad, I didn't realise there was a difference. Blush

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 01:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 01:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are conflating the terms 'home invader' and 'burglar'. A home invasion is when the perpetrators know full well that the home is occupied.

My bad, I didn't realise there was a difference. Blush

No worries. Maybe it is just more common in the States - the terminology and the act itself.

Home invaders are almost invariably armed, not always with guns.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
I have two thoughts from topics prior in the discussion. First, all American use of deadly force laws require reasonable evidence that great bodily harm or death is about to happen unless you use deadly force. Many places require you to also demonstrate that you had no option to flee as an alternative to using deadly force. That is the controversial nature of the "castle doctrine" or the "stand-your-ground laws". Despite appearances to the contrary caused by occasional idiots with guns, it isn't even universally legal to shoot someone with a knife who is in your house trying to kill you if you could possibly run from them instead. Cases like these make headlines initially, but they also almost always result in criminal prosecution and convictions which don't get nearly as publicised.

The second is a response to this line of thinking:
(03-05-2014 05:58 PM)Sam Wrote:  But, is it really necessary to allow assault rifles, silencers and hollow-point ammunition? I can't think of any scenario that justifies the use of any of those.
(04-05-2014 11:51 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Hey its a foreign perspective, may not be correct but a gun like that seems more designed for people hunting than deer.

We have a lot of that kind of thinking in the US as well, and it always puzzles me. Do people really think we have a special inviolable right enshrined in our constitution for the purpose of hunting deer instead of getting our meat from the store or for the glorious sport of punching little round holes in paper targets? That would be absurd. We don't need a constitutional right or guns to fight deer and targets. The US constitution was written and approved by citizens who had just used their guns to overthrow their government. Don't you think that might have had a little influence on their ideas about preventing the new government from disarming its citizens?

The legitimacy of government is derived from the consent of the people it governs. Should any entity, either our own government or a foreign invading army, attempt to enforce its will against the consent of the public to the point where a large portion of the population once again adopts the determination to either live free or die ("Give me liberty, or give me death!"), the collective armed population represents a giant sleeping army that would be a powerful force to contend with if ever provoked.

That is the scenario that justifies defending private ownership and control of weapons specifically designed to effectively kill people and not targets or deer. That may sound archaic and paranoid, but in even recent world history, benevolent armed governments that always defend and never oppress the citizens over long periods of time are the exception to the norm. Slavery enforced by the government gun isn't exactly ancient history right here in the United States. It was only about 70 years ago that Jews in Europe were hunted for extermination and the French public fought a resistance movement against an occupying foreign army. All told in the last 100 years, governments have murdered about a quarter of a billion of their own citizens! 12 million Ukrainians have been killed by the Russian government in the last 100 years and it looks like Russia is working up to a full scale invasion of that country right now. Anyone want to go fight and die to defend them? No? Then I hope they are armed to the teeth. Between armed civilians and armed governments, the governments are the ones usually committing atrocities and mass murder on grand scales, so why do we trust them with armies but fear the citizens?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like djhall's post
05-05-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
Right, so I think we can all at least agree that in regards to the OP, that the fucktard in Montana needs to be dealt with harshly and that his actions (insofar as we can tell) were unacceptable?

And that most likely the underlying problem here wasn't his access to a shotgun; but rather other factors (health, education, social, religious, economic) that lead him to thinking it was a good and reasonable idea to lay a trap for someone and fire at them indiscriminately?

And insofar as the United States is concerned, that gun violence correlates strongly to violence in general; both of which are strongly affected by the same underlying socio-economic factors (deteriorating public education, corrupt unresponsive government, wealth inequality, systemic discrimination) that all need to be addressed in this country?

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like EvolutionKills's post
05-05-2014, 02:24 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 02:22 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Right, so I think we can all at least agree that in regards to the OP, that the fucktard in Montana needs to be dealt with harshly and that his actions (insofar as we can tell) were unacceptable?

And that most likely the underlying problem here wasn't his access to a shotgun; but rather other factors (health, education, social, religious, economic) that lead him to thinking it was a good and reasonable idea to lay a trap for someone and fire at them indiscriminately?

And insofar as the United States is concerned, that gun violence correlates strongly to violence in general; both of which are strongly affected by the same underlying socio-economic factors (deteriorating public education, corrupt unresponsive government, wealth inequality, systemic discrimination) that all need to be addressed in this country?

Yes, yes and yes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 02:22 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And that most likely the underlying problem here wasn't his access to a shotgun; but rather other factors (health, education, social, religious, economic) that lead him to thinking it was a good and reasonable idea to lay a trap for someone and fire at them indiscriminately?

Absolutely. The standard against which he will be judged, and should be judged, is simply if he had a reasonable justification to believe that if he had not fired when he did, he or another innocent party would have been seriously injured or killed. I don't see how that can possibly be argued as there is no evidence the kid was armed or posed an imminent threat against the armed homeowner. Further, US law generally disallows self-defense as a defence against criminal charges if you engineer the situation that requires you to defend yourself. This guy wasn't a random victim of a burglar... he was setting trap for them. He engineered the situation, so any negative consequences of the situation become his responsibility.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
Entrapment should be illegal, certainly.

The idea that the citizens have a right to bear arms to defend themselves against invasions or their own governments - I like it. Everyone who ever lived through such a situation thought it couldn't happen to them - shit happens. So don't tell me how unlikely it is.

As my physical fighting abilities are likely inferior to that of a young male (the typical home invader), and since that makes me a target for such a person, and since there is no way you could end up in my house or even on my property by error, I am going to damn well pre-empt any strikes against me. I will shoot first and then ask questions later.

If you live in a different culture, belong to a different age group or have a different set up of living conditions, you should adjust your actions accordingly.

Just don't try to tell me what to do.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
05-05-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 02:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  The idea that the citizens have a right to bear arms to defend themselves against invasions or their own governments - I like it. Everyone who ever lived through such a situation thought it couldn't happen to them - shit happens. So don't tell me how unlikely it is.

As my physical fighting abilities are likely inferior to that of a young male (the typical home invader), and since that makes me a target for such a person, and since there is no way you could end up in my house or even on my property by error, I am going to damn well pre-empt any strikes against me. I will shoot first and then ask questions later.

If you live in a different culture, belong to a different age group or have a different set up of living conditions, you should adjust your actions accordingly.

Just don't try to tell me what to do.
Just to be clear for those who think we are advocating wild-west style gunfights to settle disputes, the power comes with great responsibility. I hope you also agree that when one takes it upon themselves to end the life of another human being, they damn well better be right and there will be a terrible price to pay for the overzealous and unnecessary killing of another human being. I believe you have every right to pick up that gun, but if you make that decision, and you make the choice to kill another, you had damn well better be able to justify it. If that makes you uncomfortable, don't pick up that gun. Or run, or hide, or whatever, until you can honestly say "I had no choice, I had to kill."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes djhall's post
05-05-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 02:48 PM)djhall Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 02:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  The idea that the citizens have a right to bear arms to defend themselves against invasions or their own governments - I like it. Everyone who ever lived through such a situation thought it couldn't happen to them - shit happens. So don't tell me how unlikely it is.

As my physical fighting abilities are likely inferior to that of a young male (the typical home invader), and since that makes me a target for such a person, and since there is no way you could end up in my house or even on my property by error, I am going to damn well pre-empt any strikes against me. I will shoot first and then ask questions later.

If you live in a different culture, belong to a different age group or have a different set up of living conditions, you should adjust your actions accordingly.

Just don't try to tell me what to do.
Just to be clear for those who think we are advocating wild-west style gunfights to settle disputes, the power comes with great responsibility. I hope you also agree that when one takes it upon themselves to end the life of another human being, they damn well better be right and there will be a terrible price to pay for the overzealous and unnecessary killing of another human being. I believe you have every right to pick up that gun, but if you make that decision, and you make the choice to kill another, you had damn well better be able to justify it. If that makes you uncomfortable, don't pick up that gun. Or run, or hide, or whatever, until you can honestly say "I had no choice, I had to kill."

Are you talking to me? Are you serious, I am supposed to outrun a young man with a gun and emerge alive? I need some of what you have been drinking. Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-05-2014, 03:03 PM
RE: Yay for American gun laws
(05-05-2014 02:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 02:48 PM)djhall Wrote:  Just to be clear for those who think we are advocating wild-west style gunfights to settle disputes, the power comes with great responsibility. I hope you also agree that when one takes it upon themselves to end the life of another human being, they damn well better be right and there will be a terrible price to pay for the overzealous and unnecessary killing of another human being. I believe you have every right to pick up that gun, but if you make that decision, and you make the choice to kill another, you had damn well better be able to justify it. If that makes you uncomfortable, don't pick up that gun. Or run, or hide, or whatever, until you can honestly say "I had no choice, I had to kill."

Are you talking to me? Are you serious, I am supposed to outrun a young man with a gun and emerge alive? I need some of what you have been drinking. Tongue

No, I think he's actually agreeing with you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: