Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-11-2010, 12:00 AM
Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
I swear I've seen this posted around here somewhere, but since I can't find it, kindly give me some pointers on my usual response to the old 'Well Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot were atheists and they killed millions' facepalm assertion.

My first retort, as is most atheist's, is that Hitler was in a fact a self-proclaimed Catholic. Anyone who has read Mein Kampf has seen Hitler describing the Aryan race as the divine race, created by God, and saw racially intermixing was a sin. He mentions the "creator of the universe" and worked towards eradicating the Jews, a group that atheists have no hostility towards since they are just another chapter in the big book of fairy tales.

And with Stalin and Pol Pot, I point out that although sharing the attribute of "atheist," they essentially killed in the name of Communism. They didn't kill for their lack of belief in something. You can't take shared attributes of murderers and label it as their reason. Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches, does that mean all men with mustaches are homicidal? Whereas in "holy wars," those men were killing in the name of a god. Not just because they happened to be theists, but with the specific belief that they were doing God's work.

You can't kill for the absence of a belief. You can kill because you're anti-theist, but that's completely different than pure atheism.

Most people try to say that communism was a religion in it's own right, but that seems like stretching it a bit. Just because a collective ideology (A) exhibits some traits of a religion (B) doesn't mean that A = B.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 12:08 AM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
I don't know where this myth on Hitler comes from. He absolutely was not an atheist.

Stalin absolutely was an atheist, but so what? He didn't go on a murderous rampage in the name of atheism. He didn't seek to spread atheism in all its might and wisdom. Being an atheist doesn't in any way absolve you of all the foibles that beset humanity. Stalin was a murderous sociopath whether he believed in a god or not. And, he did not kill in the name of Communism. He killed for the sake of consolidating power.

I never understand the basis of these arguments. Especially the Hitler one. What, then, was the secularized explanation for his antisemitism? He didn't like the clothes?

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 02:42 AM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
You basically just said everything I did, but with half the space.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 09:12 AM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
If we keep going I bet we can get it down to 5 words or less.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 09:18 AM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
This argument is flawed.

Happy? Big Grin


I remember reading an argument between a Wiccan and a Christian on youtube in the comment section of a video and the wiccan brought forward a few very good points, one of which was that based on some later rightings we might be correct to assume that Stalin was actually a closet theist.
Don't know if its true, would be interesting if it is though.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 09:28 AM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
I don't understand this argument. I don't know anyone that brings this up as a way of saying that these people killed "in the name of Atheism". That's not the issue (although the Khmer Rouge did ban all religion and weren't very nice about enforcing it). The issue is that people go to war and committ attrocities and that to say that it's because of some special property of religion is simply incorrect. That is to say, blaming it on religion is simplistic and ultimately dangerous because if we want to stop this sort of thing, we need to understand how it works.

As for the big Hitler-stache, he might have been a Catholic, but I think that most of his master race theory comes from the Eugenics movement, which was a "scientific" movement. That and Jews were viewed as an economic threat. So none of this is to say that religion didn't play any part in the Nazi movement, but to call it a religious movement or to say that Nazi Germany was a Theocracy is revisionist. The NSDAP was a fascist nationalist socialist party, not a religious one.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 11:28 AM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
Well, in the Soviet Union, priests and such were sent to Siberia and killed, because they were priests and believers. But they weren't killed directly because of atheism, but because of hating religion and hating believers. But of course they wouldn't have hated religion if they wouldn't have been atheists...
But so what? Dictators doing horrible things isn't new. No sane person would do that kinda stuff, no matter if the person is a theist or an atheist.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 11:38 AM
 
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
Well, maybe not in 5 words. Shy

Not all communists are atheists. Communism is a political ideology. Atheism is not.

The World's Worst Dictators


Satan is a Theist!Tongue
Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 12:15 PM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
Quote:As for the big Hitler-stache, he might have been a Catholic, but I think that most of his master race theory comes from the Eugenics movement, which was a "scientific" movement. That and Jews were viewed as an economic threat. So none of this is to say that religion didn't play any part in the Nazi movement, but to call it a religious movement or to say that Nazi Germany was a Theocracy is revisionist. The NSDAP was a fascist nationalist socialist party, not a religious one.

Who was proposing that the Nazi movement was religious? No one that I can see. This was just a response to an argument that gets made about atheism.

And, on the subject of Hitler and the Nazi's, two things: first, while it was not a religious movement, Hitler absolutely used religion and claims of "divine providence" to justify what he was doing to the German populace. He absolutely played the "god card" in his actions. Second, to state that his "Final Solution" was the result of believing the Jews posed an economic threat is seriously understating the impact religion had in the Holocaust. Seriously, seriously understating it. You want to talk about revisionist history, that is revisionist history and it has been a position pushed by mostly Christian groups since the end of the war to absolve themselves of any culpability to the whole thing.

Finally, as we've discussed numerous times, no one has ever claimed that religion is the sole reason for wars and atrocities but that does not mean it has not been a sole reason for some wars and some atrocities.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2010, 02:32 PM
RE: Ye Olde Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot spiel; evaluate my usual response
To me, the best counter to the Hitler-was-an-atheist thing is to say, "suppose I grant that Hitler was an atheist (even though there's nothing supporting the assertion.) What does that say about atheism that the witch hunts, the Inquisitions, the crusades, and the IRA don't say about Christianity?"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: