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07-06-2017, 03:47 PM
Yee haw
(07-06-2017 02:50 PM)AB517 Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 01:22 PM)Dr H Wrote:  America needs “a more violent Christianity.”

The call to violence is bad enough, but in America a lot of these nutbags are also armed.

of course this doesn't seem like a good idea. But a liberal society is a very dangerous society. as we are seeing. So softer words are needed for the softed minded people I guess. the truth just doesn't work for people.


That's the new right-wing meme. Radical Islamist terrorism is the fault of liberals who think that the rule of law holds even with those hostile to us. They long for the days of the Old West when you could just shoot whoever you like. Except that never happened, even in the Old West.
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07-06-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: Yee haw
(07-06-2017 02:50 PM)AB517 Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 01:22 PM)Dr H Wrote:  America needs “a more violent Christianity.”

The call to violence is bad enough, but in America a lot of these nutbags are also armed.

of course this doesn't seem like a good idea. But a liberal society is a very dangerous society. as we are seeing. So softer words are needed for the softed minded people I guess. the truth just doesn't work for people.

How is the liberal side of things the side that is failing?

Liberal, humanistic principles, to my mind, are the only ones not worth giving up.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
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07-06-2017, 04:06 PM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2017 04:23 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Yee haw
(07-06-2017 03:47 PM)Rachel Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 02:50 PM)AB517 Wrote:  of course this doesn't seem like a good idea. But a liberal society is a very dangerous society. as we are seeing. So softer words are needed for the softed minded people I guess. the truth just doesn't work for people.


That's the new right-wing meme. Radical Islamist terrorism is the fault of liberals who think that the rule of law holds even with those hostile to us. They long for the days of the Old West when you could just shoot whoever you like. Except that never happened, even in the Old West.

I can name 3 or 4 Liberal public intellectuals off the top of my head who think Islamism is unknowingly condoned by Liberals.

If the right spins it to say Islamist extremism is the fault of Liberals, that's a downright lie. That is the fault of the Quran.

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07-06-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Yee haw
(07-06-2017 04:06 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  I can name 3 or 4 Liberal public intellectuals off the top of my head who think Islamism is unknowingly condoned by Liberals.

For example:
Islam and the Necessity of Liberal Critique

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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07-06-2017, 08:42 PM
Yee haw
(07-06-2017 04:06 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 03:47 PM)Rachel Wrote:  That's the new right-wing meme. Radical Islamist terrorism is the fault of liberals who think that the rule of law holds even with those hostile to us. They long for the days of the Old West when you could just shoot whoever you like. Except that never happened, even in the Old West.

I can name 3 or 4 Liberal public intellectuals off the top of my head who think Islamism is unknowingly condoned by Liberals.

If the right spins it to say Islamist extremism is the fault of Liberals, that's a downright lie. That is the fault of the Quran.


I haven't heard any liberal condoning Islamist terrorism, right wing knuckleheads to the contrary.

And I disagree about it being the fault of the Qur'an. It's the fault of the believer who sets their religious text into political action. Here's why: Christianity has some pretty barbaric passages in the Bible. A particularly egregious example can be found in Psalm 137:9, namely,

"Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Few Christians today put those atavistic thoughts into practice, thankfully. So it is ultimately the fault of the religious fundamentalist of either faith, when atrocities are committed in the name of their god.
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07-06-2017, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2017 09:10 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Yee haw
@Rachel

There are two things you are failing to address:
1) If you read the Quran, comparatively to the Bible, it is easy to see that the mental leaps required in order to make the Islamic faith progressive are enormous in comparison to Christianity (which has some barely redeeming qualities in the NT.) I am not saying that the Bible doesn't have some absolutely nasty bits, because it certainly does, but the Quran literally says inside of it that its followers are not allowed to scrutinize it... which leads to;
2) It is the statistical propensity for a system of thought to produce anti-humanist outcomes. In the case of Islam, the statistical propensity in the modern day is enormously higher than any other religion.

A discussion about Islamic Theocracy is ongoing in the Muslim Billboard thread, where I hashed out my thoughts in fair detail. I don't want to do it again.

It is certainly possible for one ideology to be more toxic than another ideology. As a left leaning moderate, I can say with certainty that I don't want Islamic schools of thought gaining any ground in Western culture.

Sorry if that offends.




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07-06-2017, 09:57 PM
RE: Yee haw
To a large degree, Christianity has abandoned the idea that we are obligated to live by the Old Testament's rules and mores. The idea that with Jesus, we have a new covenant is an idea from Paul that allows us to abandon the OT in many of it's parts. Only those parts specifically commanded by Jesus like the Ten Commandments count.

But the Quran doesn't have that out, so it takes some pretty fancy apologetics to move beyond the Quran and hadiths. and so the "bad parts" of the Quran and hadiths act as a source for barbarianisms that give rise to stuff like wahabism, and Daesh and other nonsense.

And it will probably be many years until a rhetoric is created that allows Islam to abandon these "bad verses". Christianity had it's bad times in the era of the religious wars that forced the West to abandon the muscular Christianity that dragged the West down into continuous war and savagery for many years until the West got sick of it. Islam is now in it's brutal savagery phase, and it's going to take time for the Moslem world to follow the West's example. I suspect none of us will l live to see that happen in our lifetimes, but I suspect it will eventually happen.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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07-06-2017, 10:25 PM
Yee haw
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08-06-2017, 06:44 AM
RE: Yee haw
(07-06-2017 10:25 PM)Rachel Wrote:  Why would it offend? I just think you are seeing a problem with Islam when the problem lies more in religious fundamentalism. Were it not so, then the right wing nuts would be right and every single Muslim on the face of the Earth is either a terrorist or a potential terrorist.

The bits you refer to as the "barely tolerable bits" in the NT can only be had by ignoring the execrable rest of the text. There was a time before printing was invented when Bibles were not in every home and the only way one learned about the Bible was during a religious service, when a literate person read the chosen verses to the faithful.

My conclusion is that Islam is no better or worse a religion than Christianity. Certainly its adherents can live in western culture without stress. It's only when its text is interpreted literally do we see extremism, not unlike Christian fundamentalism.

I don't want to see Islamist schools of thought gaining ground either. Forgive me for saying so, but that's a non sequitur. That aside, I would like to see the nascent Christian theocratic movement in America fall by the wayside altogether. It's the 21st century. Western society no longer needs such crutches, if we ever did.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-06-2017, 07:01 AM
RE: Yee haw
(07-06-2017 08:42 PM)Rachel Wrote:  And I disagree about it being the fault of the Qur'an. It's the fault of the believer who sets their religious text into political action.

Unlike Christianity, Islam recognizes no separation between religion and politics. Muhammad was a military and political leader as well as a religious leader, and is considered by many Muslims to be the ideal exemplar of human behavior. Of course that is subject to interpretation, but as Cosmo pointed out that leads to a "statistical propensity" for bad behaviors.

Of course, you could also argue that Christianity has committed worse atrocities historically, but that might be due to Christians having more power than Muslims, not to their religion being more barbaric.

Bottom line, religious-style thinking of whatever variety leads to some terrible problems.
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