Yee haw
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08-06-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Yee haw
(08-06-2017 03:55 PM)Rachel Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 07:01 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Unlike Christianity, Islam recognizes no separation between religion and politics. Muhammad was a military and political leader as well as a religious leader, and is considered by many Muslims to be the ideal exemplar of human behavior. Of course that is subject to interpretation, but as Cosmo pointed out that leads to a "statistical propensity" for bad behaviors.

Of course, you could also argue that Christianity has committed worse atrocities historically, but that might be due to Christians having more power than Muslims, not to their religion being more barbaric.

Bottom line, religious-style thinking of whatever variety leads to some terrible problems.



As you well know, there are those who would remove the separation between church and state and install a Christian theocracy in all but name. While Islam was spread at the point of a sword, the same can be said for Christianity, particularly how the religion was spread in he New World by the Spanish.

I absolutely agree that religious-style thinking invites disaster. Sam Harris' "The End of Faith" addresses this quite eloquently, even if the people who should have understood his point failed to do so.


If one knows the history of the Scandinavian countries, one would know Christianity was often spread at the point of a sword. And remember Charlemagne's converting the Saxon's by force, killing those who refused.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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08-06-2017, 09:32 PM
RE: Yee haw
(07-06-2017 08:42 PM)Rachel Wrote:  Christianity has some pretty barbaric passages in the Bible. A particularly egregious example can be found in Psalm 137:9, namely,

"Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Makes sense. Abortion makes you go to Hell. Dashing infants against rocks is a-ok as long as it's the right infants.

I love bible logic.

"Throughout history, every mystery, ever solved, has turned out to be; Not magic."
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08-06-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: Yee haw
(08-06-2017 06:44 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  If one knows the history of the Scandinavian countries, one would know Christianity was often spread at the point of a sword. And remember Charlemagne's converting the Saxon's by force, killing those who refused.

Heard a lot of stories living in Europe as a child, of freshly converted Christians who horribly maimed the locals for refusing to play along.

"Throughout history, every mystery, ever solved, has turned out to be; Not magic."
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09-06-2017, 01:28 AM
RE: Yee haw
(08-06-2017 06:43 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 07:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  Sounds like something testable there? But hey ya know, even if you can find stats to back it up, alcohol leads to bad behaviour, yet I don't see people outlawing booze.

They're still working on that in the US. Not an outright ban -- tried that once; disastrous results -- but neo-probies are alive and well, and chipping away at our right to get sloshed.

I could have used a one-man prohibition last night Sadcryface

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-06-2017, 02:42 AM
RE: Yee haw
(08-06-2017 06:44 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(08-06-2017 03:55 PM)Rachel Wrote:  As you well know, there are those who would remove the separation between church and state and install a Christian theocracy in all but name. While Islam was spread at the point of a sword, the same can be said for Christianity, particularly how the religion was spread in he New World by the Spanish.

I absolutely agree that religious-style thinking invites disaster. Sam Harris' "The End of Faith" addresses this quite eloquently, even if the people who should have understood his point failed to do so.


If one knows the history of the Scandinavian countries, one would know Christianity was often spread at the point of a sword. And remember Charlemagne's converting the Saxon's by force, killing those who refused.

Not only Scandinavian - in Poland it was unpopular and needed to be enforced by state. Opposition was apparently so strong that it lead to uprising.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-06-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Yee haw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Crusades

The Northern Crusades. Forced Christianization of pagans in Europe. Something most Americans have not head of, it's not taught in American schools' history classes.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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09-06-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Yee haw
My Mac is back! I have been wanting to respond quickly for days!

*Kisses Computer

Again I think Vera put her finger on the problem almost precisely. The entire theology of the Christian church came under fire during The Reformation and has made attempts at progressivism ever since The Enlightenment (with varying degrees of success.) The same cannot be said of Islam. I made a point of attempting to quite thoroughly look up any radical reformation to Islamic theology since its inception ever since the conversation began. There hasn't been one. Ayaan Hirsi Ali pointed this out in a video I posted on this thread.

I actually am serious. I looked hard. So if someone is aware of a reformation period within the religion of Islam that I failed to find it would be awesome if you could point it out. I'm always open to learn something new. It's hard to discern over text sometimes but I'm not being tongue in cheek. I want to know everything there is to know about Islam, history included.

Due to globalization I am actually of the opinion, that Islam's first reformation may actually be happening right now.

I will not and never would deny the atrocities committed by other religions. I believe I qualified all of my statements regarding Islamic misanthropy with "in the modern day" or something of its ilk. If I missed a spot I'm sorry. If Christian ideology was in the middle of producing deadly Christian theocracies where woman are stoned, apostates are hung from chains, and consistent, brutal terror attacks are carried out, I would be railing against Christianity right now and calling for its reform. I cannot dispute you there.

Someone acknowledged the potential statistical propensity for bad outcomes while saying it sounds testable. I would like to suggest that it is not only testable (you are welcome to look up the Pew and Gallup polls where Muslim respondents gave their opinions on Sharia, and a variety of other topics, since we can't do much more than this apart from watching people commit acts of brutality) but self-evident. What I feel is often overlooked by the west (since some people seem to only frame how Islam effects the world from the reference point of terror attacks committed in the west) is that the Islamic ideology is very political, and has produced entire nations that are Islamic theocracies in the modern day. While Islamic ideology may potentially end up innocuous when intermingled with western humanism, the behaviour fleshed out in the Middle East within these Islamic theocracies is consistently appalling on a daily basis.

And it is a deep indoctrination of the Quran itself, combined with a lack of education, which produces these hideous outcomes. Within an Islamic theocracy, the Quran is not viewed liberally, and its allowance for violence against those who simply disagree with its theology is plain as day.

I get that Fundamentalist Creationism is a threat to science and progress in America. That is an immediate threat that needs to be dealt with, unquestionably. But I'm with Mr. Bill Nye the Science Guy when he says humans do have the capacity to address more than one thing at the same time.

Regards! Smile

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09-06-2017, 02:44 PM
RE: Yee haw
(09-06-2017 02:32 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Again I think Vera put her finger on the problem almost precisely.

What do you mean "almost?" [Image: 1%20(159).gif]

I totally agree with mordant. And with cosmo. And, Rachel, yeah, Xtianity was absolutely spread at the end of a sword, no question about it. Which is why it pains me so much to see Xtian indigenous people here, South America (or Xtian black people for that matter). Xtianity's hands are covered with as much blood as those of Islam, no two ways about it. It's just that - hopefully - those days are (almost entirely) in the past for it.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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09-06-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Yee haw
Quote:What do you mean "almost?"

Touché! Lol!

Nailed It! Big Grin

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14-06-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Yee haw
(09-06-2017 02:32 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  I actually am serious. I looked hard. So if someone is aware of a reformation period within the religion of Islam that I failed to find it would be awesome if you could point it out. I'm always open to learn something new. It's hard to discern over text sometimes but I'm not being tongue in cheek. I want to know everything there is to know about Islam, history included.

Due to globalization I am actually of the opinion, that Islam's first reformation may actually be happening right now.
There have been several attempts at Islamic reformation: Islamic Modernism; Quranism; Salafism; and others.
A number of movements are quite recent, lending support to your contention that their Reformation may be happening right now.

On the other hand, some of these movements go back as far as the 14th century, and Islamic Modernism has been going strong since the mid-19th century. It may be that what we are seeing right now with the rise in fundamentalism, is in fact the Islamic Counter-Reformation.

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