Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
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02-02-2012, 05:48 PM
Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
I was watching a YouTube philosopher who goes by the moniker TheoreticalBullshit, and this video made a lot of great points about how this world, if seen from a worldview that it was all foreseen by an omniscient God and yet allowed to proceed this way anyway, doesn't make a lot of sense. He quickly passed over one point that I thought was profound, and yet it had never previously occurred to me.

If God is to be considered "just", then everyone is given equal treatment before him. So why is it fair for people like Adam and Eve to be born without a sinful nature? We're all doomed from birth (according to the bible) and yet these two hypothetical individuals were not. What could make that "just"?

To anticipate two objections: you may say that they were put under special circumstances, and it's unfair to compare them to other humans because we're living in a different environment. This presupposes that it had to be this way. Why would a sinful nature even be necessary? Who made up these rules? Who created the idea of sin? We have a definition of justice, and a God who allowed justice to be defined also allowed the bible to contain a contradiction to it, and none of this necessarily had to be so.

The second objection is one that I'd expect from KingsChosen (among others), that Adam and Eve did not exist and that this is just a story. To take that position means that there is no basis to believe in a literal sinful nature, which is not what these "liberal" or "moderate" Christians actually believe, is it? But even if it's "just a story" written by a perfect God, then why make it a story that illustrates God as giving exemption from a sinful nature to anyone? What are we supposed to learn from a story of two individuals that experienced something that none of us would or could? Why give an example of two people that could've avoided sin if the lesson is supposed to apply to a readership made up entirely of people who are born slaves to sin? And if it's a story to learn more about God, then what we've learned is the same thing that I point out above - that God, if He exists, is not "just".

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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02-02-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
The chosen one will spin it to fit his liking as is usual for a theist who must somehow believe it.
We on the other hand know that the best fit for this situation is that this silly story and the entire god thing was a man made concoction that is flawed and should be discarded for better things.
As we all know, the god of the bible sure isn't "just" and deserves not one iota of praise, no matter how much KC wants you to.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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02-02-2012, 08:00 PM
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
Nietzsche, one of the most brilliant philosophers, I believed addressed the cause of evil and religion better than anyone.

You'll need to do some heavy reading on your own because Nietzsche is complex, but to make an admitted weak attempt to describe the great Nietzsche, he understood Christianity’s root as a slave morality. The Nobles had their morality based on the good (them) and the bad (those not Noble). The underclass (the bad) resented the Nobles and defined them as evil. So Christianity is a slave morality as it holds the characteristics of slaves: humility, weakness, sin, ignorance, as being virtuous. The soul was born from this mindset as the outward expression of hatred for the Noble (evil) was turned inward. Hence the original sin, man has fallen; only through god's grace can you be saved. The most striking example for the pathetic nature of mankind was the fact that god had to send his son to die for mankind’s sins. We were even too sorry to die for our own sins. The priests then are the new “will to power” brokers and we saw the Christians take over Europe from the Nobles and have held it for 2000 years.

Nietzsche says that god is dead, meaning that we have killed religion. God is a creation of humans and is a proxy for humans leaving religion behind. There is a problem though. We still have god’s rotting corpse in the room as we still hold many Judeo-Christian values. Christianity is nihilistic as it presumes there is no meaning without god. We have to form a new moral fabric for society the rejects the nihilistic belief and forms a new meaning for human existence, one that accepts finality and suffering as well as pleasure and enlightenment as being human. The essence of being human is nothingness, because we are free to define our own value of existence, which is not placed upon us from an outside source, god. In other words, we were not created by a creator for his purpose. We were before we are.

So when Christians make the claim of no meaning to existence without god they are actually saying there is no meaning for human existence and embrace nihilism without knowing it. Nietzsche rejects this claim and proposes that humanity is on the verge of awakening to its’ potential, but we have work to do.

I hope this wasn’t too heavy.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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02-02-2012, 09:16 PM
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
I have stated on many, many occasions that humans where created to sin. Adam and Eve weren't exempt (never mind the fact that they weren't the first humans).

Adam and Eve were born with a sinful nature; totally depraved like everyone else. They among the redeemed.

All humans (albeit Jesus) past, present, and future were created to sin and have sinful natures. God is just by damning those sinful natures to a physical death and an eternal death; however, He is merciful in the fact that He elected some for salvation.

I've pretty much said this since I've stepped foot into TTA.

Not really sure why this is an issue...

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02-02-2012, 09:25 PM
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
(02-02-2012 09:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have stated on many, many occasions that humans where created to sin. Adam and Eve weren't exempt (never mind the fact that they weren't the first humans).

Adam and Eve were born with a sinful nature; totally depraved like everyone else. They among the redeemed.

All humans (albeit Jesus) past, present, and future were created to sin and have sinful natures. God is just by damning those sinful natures to a physical death and an eternal death; however, He is merciful in the fact that He elected some for salvation.

I've pretty much said this since I've stepped foot into TTA.

Not really sure why this is an issue...

All stated as a matter of fact because you and only you know it to be true.

The issue is that you are full of delusion.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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02-02-2012, 09:32 PM
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
(02-02-2012 09:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have stated on many, many occasions that humans where created to sin. Adam and Eve weren't exempt (never mind the fact that they weren't the first humans).

Adam and Eve were born with a sinful nature; totally depraved like everyone else. They among the redeemed.

All humans (albeit Jesus) past, present, and future were created to sin and have sinful natures. God is just by damning those sinful natures to a physical death and an eternal death; however, He is merciful in the fact that He elected some for salvation.

I've pretty much said this since I've stepped foot into TTA.

Not really sure why this is an issue...

Sorry if this has been asked before (or if my knowledge is totally wrong here) but when you say Calvinist do you mean that you believe God has already pre-determined who is going to go to heaven before we are born and regardless of what we do?

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02-02-2012, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2012 09:37 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
(02-02-2012 09:32 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have stated on many, many occasions that humans where created to sin. Adam and Eve weren't exempt (never mind the fact that they weren't the first humans).

Adam and Eve were born with a sinful nature; totally depraved like everyone else. They among the redeemed.

All humans (albeit Jesus) past, present, and future were created to sin and have sinful natures. God is just by damning those sinful natures to a physical death and an eternal death; however, He is merciful in the fact that He elected some for salvation.

I've pretty much said this since I've stepped foot into TTA.

Not really sure why this is an issue...

Sorry if this has been asked before (or if my knowledge is totally wrong here) but when you say Calvinist do you mean that you believe God has already pre-determined who is going to go to heaven before we are born and regardless of what we do?

Yes.
(02-02-2012 09:25 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have stated on many, many occasions that humans where created to sin. Adam and Eve weren't exempt (never mind the fact that they weren't the first humans).

Adam and Eve were born with a sinful nature; totally depraved like everyone else. They among the redeemed.

All humans (albeit Jesus) past, present, and future were created to sin and have sinful natures. God is just by damning those sinful natures to a physical death and an eternal death; however, He is merciful in the fact that He elected some for salvation.

I've pretty much said this since I've stepped foot into TTA.

Not really sure why this is an issue...

All stated as a matter of fact because you and only you know it to be true.

The issue is that you are full of delusion.

No, I was mentioned and my opinion came into question. The explanation for my opinion was wrong. The implications were that my viewpoint wasn't reconciled from what was being discussed, when, in fact, my interpretation renders the question completely moot.

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02-02-2012, 09:56 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2012 10:12 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
ITT: OP Addresses KingChosen. KC politely obliges. Intolerant dumb ass excuse for an atheist/agnostic responds insultingly.

I don't, in the slightest, agree with KC on many issues. I think a theist position is a very arrogant position to take. I warm up preferable to deists. Nevertheless, I will take KC any day because at least he attempts to present a defense rather than stooping the level of the fucking overly enlarged adrenalin based ancestors we have evolved from.

Observe the arguments from theists on this board, deconstruct them (If you can) or shut the fuck up.

Yes TalladegaTom, this at the moment is directed at you. As for the others, you know who you are.


Now, on topic. Star, unless this is simply a hobby, then you are wasting your time. You can deconstruct anything you want in the bible; it does not matter. It is over overwhelmingly evident that in all religions people pick and choose in their religious texts. Homosexuality is an abomination? So is eating shellfish. Word for word: abomination. There is no metaphors or hints that one is worse than the other. A-b-o-m-i-n-a-t-i-o-n. Religions coincide with one's own belief.

Susan B. Anthony said it best: I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

Show me a person that follows their religious text word for word to the very last fucking sentence and I will give you a reason to give a shit about what the bible says. Until then, homophobic people are homophobic at first. They just use the bible to back it. Not the other way around. It's like pot heads justifying pot. They were pot heads first. Then they search genesis for the "seed" quote, everything else is irrelevant.

I wish to elaborate more, but I feel as if it would be a digression. I hope my point was conveyed well. I had to write this rather swiftly so it might be vacuous at parts.

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02-02-2012, 10:31 PM
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
The whole notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent.........we can forget the 'perfect' part, Being doleing out intense misery and anguish by the bucket full, in order to benefit his specially selected lackies makes for an evil monster, not the view of a loving God held my many orthodox Christians. Dodgy
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03-02-2012, 11:27 AM
 
RE: Yet Another Objection to God's "Justice"
Overlooked when i was a Christian, never really questioned either......

BUT the question that begs to be honestly answered is

"How can a god punish ME for:
a. Crap Adam and Eve did
b. Crap my Great Grandfather did (4th Generation)

Be..... Holy, Just, acceptable, correct, reasonable, logical or just plain fatherly?"

Quit the the bullshit answers (to yourself and others) about god being not one of us, not like us or any other apology of the sort. He supposedly created us LIKE him, in his image. He barks out moral code, so he has to know how we reason and make sense of things...so why would it make sense for him to expect US to be more moral than HE is?

Bare minimum he's gotta be a better father than my own dad, and my and my own dad would NEVER punish my kids for crap i did.

Punishing me for something my grand dad or great grandfather did is a joke at best.The fact that he DEMONSTRATED this with one of Noah's kids is an example of that he REALLY means this business with this insanity.

He created us with a sense of fairness..but god himself does not practice a fairness doctrine. Just shows that HE, like many politicians, are out of touch. Its just that simple.

D
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