Yet another post on "Free Will"
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06-12-2015, 02:39 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(05-12-2015 02:45 PM)bemore Wrote:  ...
I still think we are allowed a certain amount of flexibility,
...

Allowed by what or whom?

btw, Happy Birthday, bro.

Big Grin

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06-12-2015, 05:50 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
I'm not alluding to some higher power or anything. I pretty much agree with everything people have said. I have given some thought about what I was trying to say and the orignal point I was trying to make and I think I have answered my own question.

My original point was that people have learned behaviours and beliefs. Yet no matter how deeply engrained that behaviour or belief is, some people can "go against the grain" and change these old behaviour patterns. So what is the "switch"? The "turning point"? This "catalyst" of change???

How I answered my own question is this....

If you think of the first bedroom you had that you can remember as a very young child. Can you think of the walls?? Were they painted or wallpapered? What colour was the paint or what design or pattern (if any) was the wallpaper??

You may have never thought about these little details for a long time, there is a chance you may never have thought of them ever again without me mentioning it, yet there those memories are, just waiting.... with the rest of your sub-concious.

And that is my answer to my question of what is the "switch". Prompts. You may not consciously be aware of them happening, but something as small like a smell, a song, or some other intricate detail/s can re-ignite those old neural pathways of some old behaviour/thoughts/emotions.



(06-12-2015 02:39 AM)DLJ Wrote:  btw, Happy Birthday, bro.

Big Grin

I see you still have your time machine as my birthday is not for another 12 hours Drinking Beverage

But thanks bro Bowing

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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06-12-2015, 06:41 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
Everyone talks about free will, but never find a coupon for it in my Sunday circular.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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06-12-2015, 07:36 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(06-12-2015 06:41 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Everyone talks about free will, but never find a coupon for it in my Sunday circular.

Fair point.

But here you go ...

Free Will Service

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06-12-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(05-12-2015 02:21 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 09:23 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  The process involved must be undertaken by choice.

If I asked you to believe in God, could you do it?

No, because I have already gone through the process of reason concerning the ideas of theism and I have concluded that they are false. If you asked me to believe in God I would tell you that theism is false and show you why it can not be true using reason. I would do this in a way that can not be refuted. So why would I believe in it. You didn't read what I said very carefully. I said the process of reason, of concept formation and integration, is a volitional process. I don't simply choose to believe something because I want to, because my epistemology is self consciously founded on the primacy of existence.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-12-2015, 08:29 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(05-12-2015 01:56 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 09:23 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I disagree. Just because our actions are caused does not mean that they are not free. A conscious choice is a type of cause. The locus of free will on my view is the conceptual faculty, which does not work automatically. The perceptual faculty does work automatically. Our brains automatically integrate our sense data into percepts, so that we don't see a blob of colors but an entity. After that though, the process of identifying what that entity is and integrating it into our knowledge is very much a volitional process. The process involved must be undertaken by choice. The connections of logic are not made automatically. It has to be learned, it has to be practiced and honed just like any skill. This has to be done by choice. Just witness all the irrational people who visit here and you'll have ample examples of this fact. These people use their emotions and never engage the reasoning part of their brains.


By "free", in this context, I mean spontaneous--not caused by pre-existing factors.

This is a very bizarre conception of free will and it also commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. Because, for any type of conscious action to take place there are three factors which must be in place. They are the axioms of existence, identity and consciousness. For any type of conscious action to take place there needs first to be a consciousness that exists and that action must have identity because an action without identity is nothing, it doesn't exist. Consciousness is biological in nature. So a biological organism is also required along with all the attendant factors associated with it. There are all kinds of factors that pre-exist any type of conscious activity such as a choice.

It also violates the law of causality because all actions are caused by entities. There are no floating actions out there, i.e., actions not caused by entities. If you think there are, then demonstrate this with an example. So in proposing an action, choice, without any preceding factors, you are making use of a concept while denying its genetic root. That's a classic, textbook example of the fallacy of the stolen concept.

Of course there are factors preceding our actions and in many cases one of those factors is a choice between two alternative actions. Volition is a type of causality. It is an action performed by a certain type of entity, a biological organism possessing a volitional consciousness.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-12-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(06-12-2015 08:08 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 02:21 PM)wallym Wrote:  If I asked you to believe in God, could you do it?

No, because I have already gone through the process of reason concerning the ideas of theism and I have concluded that they are false. If you asked me to believe in God I would tell you that theism is false and show you why it can not be true using reason. I would do this in a way that can not be refuted. So why would I believe in it. You didn't read what I said very carefully. I said the process of reason, of concept formation and integration, is a volitional process. I don't simply choose to believe something because I want to, because my epistemology is self consciously founded on the primacy of existence.

Could you change your epistemology thingy then? Change how you choose what to believe in, so you could believe in God?

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06-12-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(05-12-2015 11:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:32 PM)wallym Wrote:  Personally, I don't think your initial analysis on your ability to believe in God on demand is accurate.

You would be wrong.

Seems like it'd be easy enough to prove that if you'd just listen to the cow.

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06-12-2015, 08:56 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2015 09:18 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)wallym Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 08:08 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  No, because I have already gone through the process of reason concerning the ideas of theism and I have concluded that they are false. If you asked me to believe in God I would tell you that theism is false and show you why it can not be true using reason. I would do this in a way that can not be refuted. So why would I believe in it. You didn't read what I said very carefully. I said the process of reason, of concept formation and integration, is a volitional process. I don't simply choose to believe something because I want to, because my epistemology is self consciously founded on the primacy of existence.

Could you change your epistemology thingy then? Change how you choose what to believe in, so you could believe in God?

No. I have made the choice to commit myself to reason as my only means of knowledge. I could not abandon it because I would never choose to do that, knowing what I know. That's because I've made the choice to be honest. See how my inability to change my epistemology to believe in an invisible magic being is the result of a choice? It is caused by my volitional act.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-12-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(06-12-2015 08:56 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)wallym Wrote:  Could you change your epistemology thingy then? Change how you choose what to believe in, so you could believe in God?

No. I have made the choice to commit myself to reason as my only means of knowledge. I could not abandon it because I would never choose to do that, knowing what I know. That's because I've made the choice to be honest. See how my inability to change my epistemology to believe in an invisible magic being is the result of a choice? It is caused by my volitional act.

When you chose to commit yourself to reason, was it a tough decision to pick between that and invisible magic? Were you right on the fence, could have gone either way at the time? Like we're "this" close to you talking about Jesus guiding your thoughts according to his will, or some nonsense?

We run it back 1000 times, out of 1000 times, how many do you think you pick invisible magic over reason for example?

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