Yet another post on "Free Will"
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08-12-2015, 10:27 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2015 10:42 PM by wallym.)
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(08-12-2015 07:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 07:23 PM)wallym Wrote:  Let's pretend the phone has a sensor or two, and a thermometer built in. Now it gets info from observing the actual weather.

This does not change anything. The phone is still not making an assertion any more than my speedometer is making an assertion when it reports how fast my car is going. The fact that the phone exists does imply consciousness because phones don't occur in nature. We know that they are the product of man's mind.

Your speedometer is measuring the speed your car is going, and then telling you how fast.

If I measure the speed your car is going, and tell you how fast, is that not an assertion?
---

Bonus tangent! At what point does a human gain consciousness?

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08-12-2015, 10:38 PM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(08-12-2015 10:27 PM)wallym Wrote:  Your speedometer is measuring the speed your car is going, and then telling you how fast.

If I measure the speed your car is going, and tell you how fast, is that not an assertion?

Depends who you ask.

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09-12-2015, 06:43 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(08-12-2015 10:27 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 07:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  This does not change anything. The phone is still not making an assertion any more than my speedometer is making an assertion when it reports how fast my car is going. The fact that the phone exists does imply consciousness because phones don't occur in nature. We know that they are the product of man's mind.

Your speedometer is measuring the speed your car is going, and then telling you how fast.

If I measure the speed your car is going, and tell you how fast, is that not an assertio

Bonus tangent! At what point does a human gain consciousness?

It's not telling me. It's not doing anything consciously. I can't see how this would be so confusing to you.

As for your bonus question, a Human becomes conscious as soon as it becomes aware of an object.

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09-12-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
Wallym,

I think I see the source of your confusion. I did not catch this earlier because of haste. You are confusing the explanation of why the concept consciousness is axiomatic with the actual axiom of consciousness. The axiom states that consciousness is consciousnees of some thing, of an object. That is all it says. The proof that it is an axiom is that you would have to first be conscious in order to deny or attempt to refute the axiom of consciousness.

Also you should go to the original source instead of getting your information from wikipedia. I recommend you read Objectivism, the Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Piekoff, if you want to understand these issues.

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09-12-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(09-12-2015 06:43 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 10:27 PM)wallym Wrote:  Your speedometer is measuring the speed your car is going, and then telling you how fast.

If I measure the speed your car is going, and tell you how fast, is that not an assertio

Bonus tangent! At what point does a human gain consciousness?

It's not telling me. It's not doing anything consciously. I can't see how this would be so confusing to you.

As for your bonus question, a Human becomes conscious as soon as it becomes aware of an object.

Consciousness is awareness of objects. Many machines are aware of objects. But machines being aware of objects doesn't count because they aren't conscious.

Is that about right?

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09-12-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(09-12-2015 08:53 AM)wallym Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 06:43 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It's not telling me. It's not doing anything consciously. I can't see how this would be so confusing to you.

As for your bonus question, a Human becomes conscious as soon as it becomes aware of an object.

Consciousness is awareness of objects. Many machines are aware of objects. But machines being aware of objects doesn't count because they aren't conscious.

Is that about right?



No, they are not aware. There can be no awareness without consciousness. To say that they are would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. You see consciousness has a purpose for an organism. It helps it to acquire the values it needs to live. A camera, speedometer, microphone, tape recorder or an iphone do not need any values. They don't face the alternative of life or death as a living organism does. These things are not conscious, they are devices we have made to extend the range of our senses beyond what is immediately available to them. I can't tell by looking or feeling how fast my car is going so some smart person made a speedometer to measure this and present it in a form that I can be aware of directly. Just like a pair of infra red goggles does. Just like a gravitometer does. Just like a particle accelerator does. To make all these things required a consciousness but these things are not conscious themselves.

It is also important to always make a distinction between the metaphysically given and the man made. Read the first chapter of OPAR and all of this will become clear to you.

When you are conscious, are you aware of an object. Yes or No? If you answer no then you contradict yourself because you had to be conscious of the question in order to answer it. An object, according to Objectivism, is anything we perceive or consider.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

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09-12-2015, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2015 11:55 AM by wallym.)
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
Definitely not using stolen concept fallacy now. I'm no longer arguing against consciousness, I'm just saying your definition of consciousness isn't what you want it to be, and that it includes machines.

You're using a lot of circular logic.

Big Blue is conscious.
-It can't be. It's not aware.
It appears to be aware of lots of things.
-It can't be, it's not conscious, and only conscious things can be aware.

Big Blue also has purpose to it's awareness. It's objective is to win the chess match. To do so, it needs to observe it's opponent and the data stored in it's memory.

And what's the rationale for things created by consciousness not being able to possess consciousness?

Siri, are you aware of Big Ben? Yes, it is a big clock in England.

Also, metaphysically given vs. man-made is not a real thing, because of quantum indeterminacy. Not that that's relevant here.

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12-12-2015, 07:30 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
So how does all of this relate to free will?

If something is conscious, does that equate to free will?

How do we know what is/isn't conscious? Is my dog conscious? Are mosquitoes conscious? What about amoebas? Does my dog have free will? What about chimpanzees? What about babies? What about mentally handicapped humans?
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12-12-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
@Matt Finney

There is no clear cut line between conscious and unconscious. There is a long list of level of consciousness. Are you conscious? Yes you are. Is your dog conscious? Yes he is, but a little bit less than you because he can't really project himself in the future. Are babies conscious? A little bit less than your dog at first but it quickly grows has their senses and brain develop. Are mosquitoes conscious? Yes, but barely since they are so limited in their interaction with their environment. Are computers and machine conscious? From a purely academic point of view, they can be. A conscious artificial intelligence could exist, but even the most powerful computer we have created right now can barely rival an insect in its capacity to act, react, explore, analyse, predict, use and reflect upon its environment.

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12-12-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(12-12-2015 08:06 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Matt Finney

There is no clear cut line between conscious and unconscious. There is a long list of level of consciousness. Are you conscious? Yes you are. Is your dog conscious? Yes he is, but a little bit less than you because he can't really project himself in the future. Are babies conscious? A little bit less than your dog at first but it quickly grows has their senses and brain develop. Are mosquitoes conscious? Yes, but barely since they are so limited in their interaction with their environment. Are computers and machine conscious? From a purely academic point of view, they can be. A conscious artificial intelligence could exist, but even the most powerful computer we have created right now can barely rival an insect in its capacity to act, react, explore, analyse, predict, use and reflect upon its environment.

So what about free will? What's your take on that?
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