Yet another post on "Free Will"
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14-12-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
Free will isn't free. It costs folks like you and me, and if we don't chip in our buck-o-five, who will?

Free will costs a buck-o-five....

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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14-12-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(09-12-2015 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There can be no awareness without consciousness.

Plants certainly appear to be aware of their immediate surroundings. 'Course I ain't sure plants ain't conscious. Save a plant, eat more meat.




#sigh
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16-12-2015, 06:54 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(14-12-2015 05:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There can be no awareness without consciousness.

Plants certainly appear to be aware of their immediate surroundings. 'Course I ain't sure plants ain't conscious. Save a plant, eat more meat.





Save the plants AND animals....just don't eat! Big Grin
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16-12-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(16-12-2015 06:54 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(14-12-2015 05:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Plants certainly appear to be aware of their immediate surroundings. 'Course I ain't sure plants ain't conscious. Save a plant, eat more meat.





Save the plants AND animals....just don't eat! Big Grin

Become an Airian. They pretend to believe hat if they get pure enuff they won't need food or water, just air!
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16-12-2015, 07:23 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(14-12-2015 05:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There can be no awareness without consciousness.

Plants certainly appear to be aware of their immediate surroundings. 'Course I ain't sure plants ain't conscious. Save a plant, eat more meat.




What's the matter with that bully in the video, terrorizing that poor innocent plant?
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16-12-2015, 07:47 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
Some interesting reading I have stumbled across whilst looking into this...

Volitional Control of Movement: The Physiology of Free Will

There Is No Free Won’t: Antecedent Brain Activity Predicts Decisions to Inhibit

Endogenous Inhibition and the Neural Basis of “Free Won't”

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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19-12-2015, 02:38 PM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
(12-12-2015 08:09 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(12-12-2015 08:06 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Matt Finney

There is no clear cut line between conscious and unconscious. There is a long list of level of consciousness. Are you conscious? Yes you are. Is your dog conscious? Yes he is, but a little bit less than you because he can't really project himself in the future. Are babies conscious? A little bit less than your dog at first but it quickly grows has their senses and brain develop. Are mosquitoes conscious? Yes, but barely since they are so limited in their interaction with their environment. Are computers and machine conscious? From a purely academic point of view, they can be. A conscious artificial intelligence could exist, but even the most powerful computer we have created right now can barely rival an insect in its capacity to act, react, explore, analyse, predict, use and reflect upon its environment.

So what about free will? What's your take on that?

I would say its mostly a misnomer. Free will, as I understand it, is our capacity to see several options and take one of them. It's so limited by our understanding, circumstances, state of mind, previous experience, social norms, etc. that calling it free is a bit excessive. We have a will or desires if you prefer, the capacity to make decision to achieve/reach some of those desires and that's about it.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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09-01-2016, 11:14 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2016 03:42 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
I apologize for taking so long to get back to you on this. I've been extremely busy with work and have had very little time to post.

(09-12-2015 11:49 AM)wallym Wrote:  Definitely not using stolen concept fallacy now. I'm no longer arguing against consciousness, I'm just saying your definition of consciousness isn't what you want it to be, and that it includes machines.

You are right. You're not committing the fallacy of the stolen concept. I spoke in haste. You are, however, contradiction yourself, because earlier you said that an iphone isn't conscious. Now you want to include machines in the list of things that are conscious.

I have not given you my definition of consciousness. Consciousness is the faculty that perceives that which exists. It is completely open ended. The particular form of the consciousness is an omitted measurement. Therefor, if someone invents a conscious machine, I will have no problem at all subsuming this new form of consciousness into the concept of consciousness.

By the way, I'm glad you are no longer arguing against consciousness. Hopefully you see the utter futility in such an endeavor.

(09-12-2015 11:49 AM)wallym Wrote:  You're using a lot of circular logic.

Big Blue is conscious.
-It can't be. It's not aware.
It appears to be aware of lots of things.
-It can't be, it's not conscious, and only conscious things can be aware.

How so? Consciousness is awareness, and awareness is consciousness. They are one and the same. Pointing this out is no more circular than pointing out that 2
+2=4. It's a tautology.

Big Blue only appears to be aware. As far as I know, no one has ever created a conscious computer. In fact several companies are vying to be the first to do it.

But let's say for arguments sake, that someone has done it. There is a conscious computer. Would it mean that the axiom of consciousness is invalid? No it would not. Consciousness would still be consciousness of an object. Would it disprove that man has free will. No it would not, because not all forms of consciousness are volitional. Free will is essentially the choice to think or to evade reality. If someone invents a computer with this ability, to think or evade thinking, then it too will have free will.


(09-12-2015 11:49 AM)wallym Wrote:  Big Blue also has purpose to it's awareness. It's objective is to win the chess match. To do so, it needs to observe it's opponent and the data stored in it's memory.

It's not aware. It is 100% reliant on Human consciousness for the actions it takes.

(09-12-2015 11:49 AM)wallym Wrote:  And what's the rationale for things created by consciousness not being able to possess consciousness?

I don't see where I said that.

(09-12-2015 11:49 AM)wallym Wrote:  Siri, are you aware of Big Ben? Yes, it is a big clock in England.

You've already conceded that an iphone isn't conscious so why is this relevant?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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17-01-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: Yet another post on "Free Will"
Free Will:
noun
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion

You're asking me if "I" have the "power or ability" to "choose".
"I" meaning the "self aware me"
Power refers the choices being logically possible.
Ability refers to my mental & physical health
Choose means "pick out or select"

Free Will can only be possible dependent on the above conditions.
If I am not self aware I cannot exercise free will
If the assumed choices are logically impossible I cannot exercise free will
If I am physically or mentally incapable of doing something I cannot exercise free will
If a choice wasn't given or isn't available to me then I cannot exercise free will.
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