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Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
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01-06-2011, 03:40 AM
Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
Before I begin, allow me to emphasize the fact that I am not in any position to make this thread since I have no background in any of the field required to study any of the problems addressed here. I'm a student of film production and, as a side note, I'm an Indonesian, so please pardon any grammatical error. I'm writing this post out of my own personal desire to remind people of this dangerous time we're living in.

Problem #1: Not enough space to live
In every single country in the world, population has soared almost uncontrollably and perhaps even supported by the government for several reasons (one is certainly to make sure that the country doesn't have any shortage of labour force in any given future). It is obvious that what happens with so many humans is that there is more and more need for housing. In a several third world countries, apartments are too expensive and therefore they would require houses. Since the latter is much more preffered even in the U.K. and U.S. (for investment), that means more and more land are being converted into residential area which brings us the problem, less land for agriculture and natural reserve. Less place for animals to hide and live in, less trees which means that we have less protection against polution, errotion, etc. Simply put, don't say anything against deforestation if you keep making babies like rabbits!

Problem #2: Not enough money
I've read some threads in this forum discussing Marxism, Capitalism, etc. but from I gathered, it seems to me that we're forgetting history again. My path towards atheism started with history. Learning the history behind every major religion has taught me that all of them are man-made and whilst the idea behind those religions is commendible, we now know that every single of them has evolved into nothing short of a crime syndicate or a private organization bend to rule over many and get as much money from their "flock". So I used the same approach in my attempt to learn more about economy. And I found that money is the source of all the major problems in the world! Without it, there won't be any social-economy classes, no poverty, no theft, and any individual is free to live his/her life and pursue anything. But of course, it is only possible in the fictious world of Gene Roddenberry and it is impossible to think of a world without any means of transaction. But that is the problem! We used to use gold, pearl, gems and other precious stones as money. It is only (relatively) recently that we started using paper (printed paper, to be precise). Even at its early conception, money is hard to come by. Now, however, money is so important, you can't leave home without it. And since there are more and more babies being born, even as I type this erroneous post, the government is required to print even more money, and thus we have recession. And personally, I find it disturbing watching people trade currency as though they are more precious that gold! THEY ARE JUST PLAIN PAPER (beautifully printed, but paper nonetheless)! And things get worse even since we have banking system enter the fray. Banks introduce to us so many new "systems" and "deals" and what-not that are simply meant to confuse people. The greatest blow to mankind is the introduction of credit card! It's a fraud and you know it! And yet, like money, we can't leave home without it (or them since most people that I know carry more than 2 credit cards. "This one has lower interest and this one gives more discount in that restaurant" they say). The more I think about it the more obvious it is to me that the best way to get out of this nonsense is by going back to using gold and precious stones.

Problem #3: Not enough job
This one is obvious. And to make matters worse, big companies now outsource a good part of the workforce, mainly data management and financial bookings, to Asian countries (good for them, but are they paid enough?). If you have a job now, I'd imagine you'd have to work extra hard not to get sacked and replaced by cheaper labours (i.e. fresh graduates or college interns).

Problem #4: Not enough natural resources
There has been so many reports that due to mining, the planet lost, to some extent, some of its structural integrity causing earthquakes and mud overflows (Lapindo case in Java, Indonesia being one of those cases).

Problem #5: Mutation
There are 6.5 billion people living on this planet, chances are we have up to 7 billion by the end of this year. The exponential increase in human population over the past century is very alarming indeed and yet people seem to be more concerned about cancer and obesity. Back in the 80s down to mid 90s, it was very rare to hear about people with breathing difficulties and allergies, but now there are more and, chances are, you are one of those people with aforementioned problem. I'm lactose intolerent and, as most of you know, it's pretty common. But why is it common? Back then we didn't hear about people being allergic to nuts very often, but now most of my nephews and nieces have them. Why? I don't know whether it can be classified as mutation, but I think that is the case simply because now there are people who are allergic to preservatives, not something that can be found a century ago. And because there are so many people being born every minute (or second) the number of people with allergy rises as well. Back when there were only a few million people, a small percentage of the population would have allergies. Let's say it's just 1%, small percentage, but with 4 million people living in a big city that's 40,000 people already. Coupled with other factors such as immigration, diet, chemical in food and drink, climate change and urbanization, there would be more than just 40,000.

Problem #6: Disease
Same problem with mutation, but even worse if the disease is contagious. In an apartment building there could be up to 200 people living close to each other, plus public transport, plus cramped office spaces, restaurants, cafes, bars, sport stadiums, cinemas etc., one carrier can multiply in mere minutes. Scary thought.

Problem #7: More people like me

NOTE: This post is intended to be a rant, the poster does not even know whether he is posting in the right section or not. Not to be taken too seriously.
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01-06-2011, 04:13 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
(01-06-2011 03:40 AM)yongkykun Wrote:  Before I begin, allo...
/rant/
...aken too seriously.
recommended reading

Sidenote: I kind of agree... Wink

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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01-06-2011, 05:09 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
(01-06-2011 04:13 AM)The_observer Wrote:  
(01-06-2011 03:40 AM)yongkykun Wrote:  Before I begin, allo...
/rant/
...aken too seriously.
recommended reading

Sidenote: I kind of agree... Wink

I have heard about that book.
I have GOT to buy it ...
Could you recommend a digital version ?

EDIT : Nevermind - I'm an idiot , it was right there ...

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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01-06-2011, 05:53 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
/*off topic/
For the same reason you have to be sceptical to a quack selling you snake-oil you have to be sceptical for a good intended politician/doctor/environmentalist selling you subconscious fears. Only, you don't know that...

An eye opener and my favorite skeptical reading of all time.
/off topic*/

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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01-06-2011, 06:58 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
I personally think that the increase in susceptibility and living difficulties is a huge crutch of both our polluted air and the fact that science allows for less capable humans to survive and reproduce and pass on genes. I believe that as we gain ways to keep people alive from more and more "defects" that the number of cases increases insurmountably. Obviously I won't be passing on much genetic coding as I am not even fertile, but I'd probably look more to adoption then birthing as I had a lot of health issues.

It's just my personal opinion that part of the "weakness" in modern day life is from our genes and not only our environment. I am aware that sterility has caused a huge outbreak of susceptibility.

As I see it we are basically causing "reverse eugenics", and not allowing many genes to escape the gene pool through premature deaths.

An alternative assumption about defects is that we are experiencing the same amount of DNA mutations as always, but the larger population. and better instrumentation leads to a larger number.

The peanut allergy was found to correlate with women using peanut oil lotions on their skin during pregnancy. There are many outbreaks of specific deficiencies caused by introducing certain chemicals to the fetus.

Your views are just fine, the only problem is that we need a solution because many people can reach a similar enough idea of the problem. Intelligence helps the population growth as the more affluent tend to have less children. If you spread education through an area the birth rates lower (as evidenced in many parts of Africa {if you want a paper on it I'll have to look it's been a while}).

In many areas there is also more plans of expanding the living space of existing city areas through larger group apartment complexes and such. Eventually the issue will reach a point where it handles itself, but humans might prefer their own answer to the natural conclusion they can't avoid. Though most would prefer a non human answer as they could continue on guilt free.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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01-06-2011, 07:31 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
(01-06-2011 06:58 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Your views are just fine, the only problem is that we need a solution because many people can reach a similar enough idea of the problem. Intelligence helps the population growth as the more affluent tend to have less children. If you spread education through an area the birth rates lower (as evidenced in many parts of Africa {if you want a paper on it I'll have to look it's been a while}).

Interesting points you've given in your post Lilith Pride and sorry to hear about your health condition.

I agree that environment (and what we've done to it) can bring about mutation. I believe that our genes adapt faster because the environment changes fast as well. Interestingly enough it made me think that since we don't walk or run as much as our ancestors did, we as a species will have thinner leg and will suck in bed even more (especially males).

I didn't know that peanut oil lotions can alter a fetus' gene. That's news to me. Thanks for pointing that up. Though I find it a bit difficult to believe that something that is applied on epidermal level can do such damage.

Growing up in a third world country, I don't think that it's going to be easy introducing education to people who still believe in superstition. In most rural areas in Indonesia, it is believed that having many children will bring good fortune to the family. A believe that started out centuries ago and probably introduced by merchants from other parts of Asia. Even though the reality points to a different outcome, most of these people still believe in it because it is exactly the kind of thing that they've been fed from childhood and it's the same thing that they feed onto their children's mind. Religion also plays a part by telling its believer that contraception is evil and forbidden by god. I think this is even harder to fight in the long run since most people in my country still believe in religion, Islam being the most prominent one. Perhaps what makes education work in Africa can be implemented in Indonesia at some point in the future though I don't think that the government would appreciate it.

As for solution, I really don't think that we can do much unless governments the world over deconvert to social humanism or atheism in general and stress more on moral problems instead of economical ones. Education in most countries harken back to 18th century principles of producing hardworking generation and not morally sound individuals.
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01-06-2011, 08:34 PM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
More recently a lot of the areas have had huge issues with the Catholic churches urge to spread their disdain for condoms, but in anthropology and a few other social fields of study it was observed within small communities as they worked with them over decades.

Unfortunately religion has a stranglehold on almost all of the world. Economy being it's horrid device of social control. Providing a way to be more westernized that in turn forces a country to accept their views. In many cases in Africa and other areas outside interference has lead to huge epidemics not just because of diseases being brought, but because the westerners force people to change the lifestyle they've lived for centuries.

Religion will have the main power within third world countries until we manage to convince governments to stop enabling the religious to gain immense wealth. Money is much easier to get as there are no taxes, and believers willingly give up their own money to the religion. No sensible group can compete with this sort of underhanded tactic. When the world accepts that religion should not get special privileges things will be a bit easier for secular goals.

Freedom of religion does not mean promotion of religion.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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02-06-2011, 04:34 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
I'm not sure religion is the best scapegoat here. Take China as an example. Their culture once encouraged large families since the younger take care of the elderly. I don't think there was an especially religious motivation, or at least it was non-theistic. Self interest/preservation drove family size in a biological Ponzi scheme. Then the one-child policy was sponsored by the government and in many ways undermined key aspects of chinese culture. China now has an aging population with few to care for the elderly and is adjusting the one-child policy to seek a solution.

So I offer two thoughts from this:
First, self interest in many manifestations, some of them religious, is a more general driver on exploitation.
Second, government is not necessarily a reliable or equitable agent of change, since self interest is often a guiding light of the rulers (whether democratically elected or not).

He was part of my dream, of course--but then I was part of his dream, too!
--Alice
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02-06-2011, 05:54 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
We're discussing smaller countries that have been heavily influenced by missionary work. China had long known of the westerners not as masters but as traders. Places like Africa (in many parts) were controlled by Europe rather than their own governments, as the tribes were broken down by missionaries proof of useful tools which eradicated their previous lifestyle. Shanghai is the only part of China which was under heavy western control, and even there the stronger bonds and cultural understandings did not allow the westerns to so easily break apart their previous lifestyle. As the western world expands they generally leave missionaries as the lookouts for countries that are being left under slight control. Embassies are pretty new. Religion has had a drastic effect on many parts of Africa, the lower parts of Asia, and many small islands here and there that upon finding had to be "shown the light". The savage was a terrible slur that for much of the 20th century was a focus of the rich and powerful, first seen as animals and slaves the western elite felt there was a need to "civilize" them. Places like China and Japan were much better connected and stable by the point of heavy western influence.

There are many forms of social control used to alter the habits of a civilization, but I'm discussing cases where religion was the driving factor in making a group completely disregard their old life.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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02-06-2011, 05:55 AM
RE: Yongky Presents 7 Problems with 7 Billion People
@Pilgrim, I somewhat agree and yet disagree with some of your points. True, religion is not the best scapegoat, but it does have it's role in the grand scheme of things. And regarding China, being of Chinese persuasion myself, the whole taking care of your elderly thing has nothing to do with the government.

I think culture, and with it tradition, is just as powerful as religion. In my country, most Chinese descent hold a very strong desire to keep their culture even though they hold different beliefs in religion. In retrospect, I was like that and quite xenophobic myself (I was a racist as well) until I realize that I am human just as everyone else no matter what skin colour or nationality one holds. It has a very strong and very appealing hold on someone whose family went through a lot of troubles in the past for simply being born to a Chinese family.

Reading my post back, I think I should point out that what drives Indonesian to have more children is tradition and religion was conveniently there to be used as a tool to enforce such tradition.

Regarding your opinion about government, I can agree with you under the basis that everyone, and I mean every single person in any given country, gets the same level of education and the same access to information that would allow her/him to be as "enlightened" as the next person. That is wishful thinking. Government on the other hand has the power to change people's opinion and they have tools that are best suited to do that. In the old days we have propaganda broadcasted to radios and television sets and today they have the same tools plus the mother of all information sources, the internet. Again, I have to use Indonesia as an example (because I lived there for 25 odd years), where the government banned access or monitor access to the Internet. The cover story is that the government did what they did to censor out porn sites, an unproven statement and the religious community backs it up because it coincides with their view on morality. But the truth is, out of so many people that I have asked, no one uses the Internet for porn as much as it was a decade ago.
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