You CAN game Christian morality
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16-02-2015, 04:30 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(16-02-2015 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 12:33 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Not acting on bad thoughts is a good thing, unlike what the bible asserts.

Sure, it's better for everybody if we have bad thoughts and don't act upon them, then if we just have bad thoughts.

But the question is, is having bad thoughts a bad thing? Should one in essence find ways to not have them, rather than to keep having them?

It's better to have good thoughts than bad thoughts, I don't think religion aids in that.
It's better to approach it through a healthy psychology of wanting to change, rather than a coercive psychology of supernatural threats.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-02-2015, 04:45 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(16-02-2015 04:30 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure, it's better for everybody if we have bad thoughts and don't act upon them, then if we just have bad thoughts.

But the question is, is having bad thoughts a bad thing? Should one in essence find ways to not have them, rather than to keep having them?

It's better to have good thoughts than bad thoughts, I don't think religion aids in that.
It's better to approach it through a healthy psychology of wanting to change, rather than a coercive psychology of supernatural threats.

Well, for me, the concept of wanting to change is perceived in relationship to acquiring a certain way of being. It requires perceiving the sort of person I want to be, in relation to the person I am, not out of fear, but a desire for the fullness, or wholeness that particular desired life contains.

And this seems to be true for most of my religious friends, and religious community as a whole, and I think it's true for most believers in general, though there are possible exceptions.
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17-02-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(16-02-2015 03:08 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 01:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. An old Christian saying goes, "People planning to get into Heaven at Midnight often die at 11:45." I've heard many sermons on not gaming the system and many more on not putting off until tomorrow what you want and ought to do today--I'm sure you have as well.

I agreed there's a certain amount of "playing with fire" going on, but I'm not sure that's as much of a problem as the Christians typically say it is.

No one who dies is 100% obedient. Either there's some amount of fudge factor there or there isn't. If not, then very few people would make it to heaven (perhaps that 144,000 number is accurate?). If so, then what do you have to say how much of a fudge factor there is? What scripture says that you can sin "so much" before getting in? How contrite and repentant do you have to be?

Remember: saying "I'll be a better Christian later" is still a forgivable sin.


(16-02-2015 01:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. You do have a real loophole, however it takes the emotional courage to exploit it to say, "I REALLY do believe that Jesus was shredded and tortured for my sin and that He is the sole payment for my sin. So I'll screw around for a while, hope I don't die and go to Hell, and then trust Jesus." I've heard people I'm witnessing to say dopey things like this, yes, but I would question whether they really know Jesus in a pre-salvation sense. I mean, I've heard atheists say something similar like "If there's a god and He really wants me to be saved, He'll force me to be saved when the time is right." This error of fatalism is usually underscored in any study of heresy whether the Christian studying is a free will or a reform theologian.

Perhaps there's a more realistic middle ground. One where a person wants to behave, but they also have a hard time giving something up. The whole notion of "gaming the system" doesn't have to be as overt or intentional as that. I know Jesus complained about lukewarm people, but again, where's the actual line? No one is perfect, and without some fudge factor, no one makes it to heaven.

Paul was a murderer. He wrote 2/3 of the NT. This is just one reason Christians are excited by the concept of grace. How far will someone go before they repent?

Yes, no one person is perfect except Christ. Yes, any Christian who says they are without sin is lying. And yes, Christians who play about with sin are not immune to sin's consequences. Backslidden Christians are pretty miserable persons, actually.

No, Jesus didn't complain about lukewarm persons but about lukewarm churches. The notion that God would rather deal with a hot or cold person who is also a Christian is not right. God doesn't prefer cold Christians to lukewarm Christians.

And so, here's another fine look at scripture. The Laodiceans lived between a mountainous region known for refreshing, cold and clear waters. Below them was a source of hot springs reputed to have medicinal properties. Their water could become an admixture of lukewarm, heavy water with neither refreshing nor medicinal properties. Again, the people living at the time the documents were first shared knew exactly what God was thinking and meaning. The "mystery language" of the Bible really isn't such but requires, just as Jesus said, persons wanting to know more to dig a bit deeper, just as Jesus intended...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
I've brought that up to a theist before and his response was, "Their repenting is genuine."

Just like if Hitler repented and accepted Jesus on his death bed you get the same response..."He didn't really mean it."

Special pleading, correct? Hey I'm getting good at this!
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17-02-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(17-02-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Paul was a murderer. He wrote 2/3 of the NT. This is just one reason Christians are excited by the concept of grace. How far will someone go before they repent?

Yes, no one person is perfect except Christ. Yes, any Christian who says they are without sin is lying. And yes, Christians who play about with sin are not immune to sin's consequences. Backslidden Christians are pretty miserable persons, actually.

So you're saying that someone who games the system might still make it to heaven, but will be miserable here on earth?


(17-02-2015 11:59 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I've brought that up to a theist before and his response was, "Their repenting is genuine."

Just like if Hitler repented and accepted Jesus on his death bed you get the same response..."He didn't really mean it."

Special pleading, correct? Hey I'm getting good at this!

Depends on how they follow that up, I guess. I could see special pleading, no true Scotsman, or even the Texas sharpshooter.
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17-02-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
Texas Sharpshooter?
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18-02-2015, 07:16 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2015 07:22 AM by RobbyPants.)
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(17-02-2015 02:23 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Texas Sharpshooter?

Actually, looking at the wiki link, I may have been misapplying it.

I was thinking it was when a person starts at a conclusion (bullets shot in a wall) and then crafts their rule or scenario afterward (drawing the circle around those shots). The wiki link says that it's more of drawing the circle around the biggest cluster, which basically makes it similar to cherry picking. You're ignoring data you don't like to reach a conclusion. Still, I think part of my assumption was apt in that it involves "refining" the hypothesis to fit the data.
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19-02-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(17-02-2015 02:04 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Paul was a murderer. He wrote 2/3 of the NT. This is just one reason Christians are excited by the concept of grace. How far will someone go before they repent?

Yes, no one person is perfect except Christ. Yes, any Christian who says they are without sin is lying. And yes, Christians who play about with sin are not immune to sin's consequences. Backslidden Christians are pretty miserable persons, actually.

So you're saying that someone who games the system might still make it to heaven, but will be miserable here on earth?


(17-02-2015 11:59 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I've brought that up to a theist before and his response was, "Their repenting is genuine."

Just like if Hitler repented and accepted Jesus on his death bed you get the same response..."He didn't really mean it."

Special pleading, correct? Hey I'm getting good at this!

Depends on how they follow that up, I guess. I could see special pleading, no true Scotsman, or even the Texas sharpshooter.

Not in your system, no. My example first trusts Christ than acts like an atheist--but it's just an act. Angel What I'm really saying is I can't imagine someone who is deeply committed to concepts of Heaven and Hell saying, "How many chances can I take before I make sure that I'm okay when I die...?" Whereas, sure, I can see atheists doing whatever they will, be it moral or immoral IMHO.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-02-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(19-02-2015 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 02:04 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So you're saying that someone who games the system might still make it to heaven, but will be miserable here on earth?



Depends on how they follow that up, I guess. I could see special pleading, no true Scotsman, or even the Texas sharpshooter.

Not in your system, no. My example first trusts Christ than acts like an atheist--but it's just an act. Angel What I'm really saying is I can't imagine someone who is deeply committed to concepts of Heaven and Hell saying, "How many chances can I take before I make sure that I'm okay when I die...?" Whereas, sure, I can see atheists doing whatever they will, be it moral or immoral IMHO.

Xtians can do whatever they want, all they have to do is utter a prayer for forgiveness, and its all good. Xtians require the fear of a super-sky daddy judging them from afar to "keep them on the straight and narrow"...yet, US prison statistics show the vast majority of prisoners are Xtians. Atheists believe they are responsible and accountable for their own actions, no prayer card to throw down to make one feel better about their latest sin...and oddly, non-religious are .02% of US prisoners... even though they makeup 30+% of america Consider

"Encompassing at least agnosticism, atheism, deism,[a] secular humanism, and general secularism, nonreligious Americans represent about a third of the population"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_...ted_States

Largely secular nations like scandanavian countries are not only at the top tier of ranked civilizations, but have the lowest percentage of crime, teenage pregnancies, and other negative behaviors, all without god...while America is rotting with faith, and we have the world's highest number of prisons/prisoners and violent crime. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-02-2015, 07:40 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(19-02-2015 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not in your system, no. My example first trusts Christ than acts like an atheist--but it's just an act. Angel What I'm really saying is I can't imagine someone who is deeply committed to concepts of Heaven and Hell saying, "How many chances can I take before I make sure that I'm okay when I die...?"

Sounds both like an argument from incredulity and a NTS.

Again, under your system, you're going to continually be falling short, and this is the expected state of things. If allowing yourself to sin while pushing back those feelings of remorse is a forgivable sin, then... that's just the Christian falling short... as expected. I mean, seriously, if Christians aren't supposed to want to sin, yet they do anyway, why are they sinning? What mechanism causes them to sin if the "true" Christians don't want to?


(19-02-2015 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Whereas, sure, I can see atheists doing whatever they will, be it moral or immoral IMHO.

Funny. I make my moral decisions irrespective of nonfalsifiable carrots and sticks.
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