You CAN game Christian morality
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23-02-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(19-02-2015 07:40 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(19-02-2015 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not in your system, no. My example first trusts Christ than acts like an atheist--but it's just an act. Angel What I'm really saying is I can't imagine someone who is deeply committed to concepts of Heaven and Hell saying, "How many chances can I take before I make sure that I'm okay when I die...?"

Sounds both like an argument from incredulity and a NTS.

Again, under your system, you're going to continually be falling short, and this is the expected state of things. If allowing yourself to sin while pushing back those feelings of remorse is a forgivable sin, then... that's just the Christian falling short... as expected. I mean, seriously, if Christians aren't supposed to want to sin, yet they do anyway, why are they sinning? What mechanism causes them to sin if the "true" Christians don't want to?


(19-02-2015 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Whereas, sure, I can see atheists doing whatever they will, be it moral or immoral IMHO.

Funny. I make my moral decisions irrespective of nonfalsifiable carrots and sticks.

Now you're speaking from a logical base, however, you attended (an evangelical?) church for years but are unaware what kind of sin we're speaking of here? Really?

There are millions of Christians who following conversion avoid dangerous lifestyle behaviors, have greatly improved marriage and family relationships, etc. Yet we can sin in our speech and the Bible records how no one, believer or not, is perfect in speech. Sin is imperfection. Perfection comes for the Christian in the next world.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-02-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(19-02-2015 02:57 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(19-02-2015 02:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not in your system, no. My example first trusts Christ than acts like an atheist--but it's just an act. Angel What I'm really saying is I can't imagine someone who is deeply committed to concepts of Heaven and Hell saying, "How many chances can I take before I make sure that I'm okay when I die...?" Whereas, sure, I can see atheists doing whatever they will, be it moral or immoral IMHO.

Xtians can do whatever they want, all they have to do is utter a prayer for forgiveness, and its all good. Xtians require the fear of a super-sky daddy judging them from afar to "keep them on the straight and narrow"...yet, US prison statistics show the vast majority of prisoners are Xtians. Atheists believe they are responsible and accountable for their own actions, no prayer card to throw down to make one feel better about their latest sin...and oddly, non-religious are .02% of US prisoners... even though they makeup 30+% of america Consider

"Encompassing at least agnosticism, atheism, deism,[a] secular humanism, and general secularism, nonreligious Americans represent about a third of the population"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_...ted_States

Largely secular nations like scandanavian countries are not only at the top tier of ranked civilizations, but have the lowest percentage of crime, teenage pregnancies, and other negative behaviors, all without god...while America is rotting with faith, and we have the world's highest number of prisons/prisoners and violent crime. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

Defend your statements if you would? Where does it say in the Bible that Christians "can do whatever they want, all they have to do is utter a prayer for forgiveness, and its all good," post-conversion? And where do the scriptures teach that we "require the fear of a super-sky daddy judging them from afar to keep them on the straight and narrow"? You clearly haven't read the New Testament with any eye for detail.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-02-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(23-02-2015 01:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...
Defend your statements if you would? Where does it say in the Bible that Christians "can do whatever they want, all they have to do is utter a prayer for forgiveness, and its all good," post-conversion? And where do the scriptures teach that we "require the fear of a super-sky daddy judging them from afar to keep them on the straight and narrow"? You clearly haven't read the New Testament with any eye for detail.

1 John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Luke
1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Ephesians
6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Phillipians
2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

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24-02-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(23-02-2015 01:47 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Now you're speaking from a logical base, however, you attended (an evangelical?) church for years but are unaware what kind of sin we're speaking of here? Really?

Well, yes. That was one of the nice side effects to when I stopped believing. I became both willing and able to approach the subject logically, unburdened by a psychological desire to get it to "make sense".


(23-02-2015 01:47 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are millions of Christians who following conversion avoid dangerous lifestyle behaviors, have greatly improved marriage and family relationships, etc. Yet we can sin in our speech and the Bible records how no one, believer or not, is perfect in speech. Sin is imperfection. Perfection comes for the Christian in the next world.

"Dangerous lifestyle behavior" doesn't necessarily mean "sin" unless you define it that way ad hoc. Relationships can be improved irrespective of sin. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the fact that people still do sin, regardless of a supposed desire not to sin.

Note that if sin is "imprefection", and "gaming the system" is a sin, then it by very definition means that it can still be gamed.
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24-02-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(23-02-2015 02:07 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-02-2015 01:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...
Defend your statements if you would? Where does it say in the Bible that Christians "can do whatever they want, all they have to do is utter a prayer for forgiveness, and its all good," post-conversion? And where do the scriptures teach that we "require the fear of a super-sky daddy judging them from afar to keep them on the straight and narrow"? You clearly haven't read the New Testament with any eye for detail.

1 John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Luke
1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Ephesians
6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Phillipians
2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Where do these verses indicate that one can do what one wishes without consequence? (Nowhere, you can't double dip and say we are free to do what we want and also fear a great judge.)

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-02-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(24-02-2015 09:19 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(23-02-2015 01:47 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Now you're speaking from a logical base, however, you attended (an evangelical?) church for years but are unaware what kind of sin we're speaking of here? Really?

Well, yes. That was one of the nice side effects to when I stopped believing. I became both willing and able to approach the subject logically, unburdened by a psychological desire to get it to "make sense".


(23-02-2015 01:47 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are millions of Christians who following conversion avoid dangerous lifestyle behaviors, have greatly improved marriage and family relationships, etc. Yet we can sin in our speech and the Bible records how no one, believer or not, is perfect in speech. Sin is imperfection. Perfection comes for the Christian in the next world.

"Dangerous lifestyle behavior" doesn't necessarily mean "sin" unless you define it that way ad hoc. Relationships can be improved irrespective of sin. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the fact that people still do sin, regardless of a supposed desire not to sin.

Note that if sin is "imprefection", and "gaming the system" is a sin, then it by very definition means that it can still be gamed.

Only if the Game Master is benevolent, yes.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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25-02-2015, 07:13 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(24-02-2015 01:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Only if the Game Master is benevolent, yes.

You mean "only if he doesn't change the rules on the game after it starts"? Because this isn't a question of benevolence, but rather adherence to his own system.

Although, I will give you points given God's tendency to radically change the rules every few thousand years. Assuming the Mormons aren't right, it's been about two thousand years since the last goalpost shift.
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25-02-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(25-02-2015 07:13 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-02-2015 01:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Only if the Game Master is benevolent, yes.

You mean "only if he doesn't change the rules on the game after it starts"? Because this isn't a question of benevolence, but rather adherence to his own system.

Although, I will give you points given God's tendency to radically change the rules every few thousand years. Assuming the Mormons aren't right, it's been about two thousand years since the last goalpost shift.

Adherence to the system?

1. Those who sin may be saved before death. Free will.

2. Those who are saved before death are saved from all their sin, before and post conversion.

3. Those who are saved need benevolence for ongoing sin because they will not be utterly changed until the next world. They are often radically changed, saved marriages, healthy lifestyles, etc. but make mistakes. They are still humans.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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25-02-2015, 11:08 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(25-02-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 07:13 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You mean "only if he doesn't change the rules on the game after it starts"? Because this isn't a question of benevolence, but rather adherence to his own system.

Although, I will give you points given God's tendency to radically change the rules every few thousand years. Assuming the Mormons aren't right, it's been about two thousand years since the last goalpost shift.

Adherence to the system?

1. Those who sin may be saved before death. Free will.

2. Those who are saved before death are saved from all their sin, before and post conversion.

3. Those who are saved need benevolence for ongoing sin because they will not be utterly changed until the next world. They are often radically changed, saved marriages, healthy lifestyles, etc. but make mistakes. They are still humans.

Right, so what prevents option 2 from being abused like a regenerating stack of 'Get Out Of Jail Free' cards? How does one verify when one has or has not been saved, and thus has access to the 'All You Can Sin' buffet?

I'm not expecting real answers, but it should be fun to watch the human pretzel. For a bit at least. Drinking Beverage

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25-02-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(25-02-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 07:13 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You mean "only if he doesn't change the rules on the game after it starts"? Because this isn't a question of benevolence, but rather adherence to his own system.

Although, I will give you points given God's tendency to radically change the rules every few thousand years. Assuming the Mormons aren't right, it's been about two thousand years since the last goalpost shift.

Adherence to the system?

1. Those who sin may be saved before death. Free will.

2. Those who are saved before death are saved from all their sin, before and post conversion.

3. Those who are saved need benevolence for ongoing sin because they will not be utterly changed until the next world. They are often radically changed, saved marriages, healthy lifestyles, etc. but make mistakes. They are still humans.

4. Those who are saved require God not to change his mind and nullify point 2, thus suddenly rendering everyone unsaved who was formerly saved.

See? It requires God sticking to his rules, or else you can't possibly make any predictions about the future based on the system. Benevolence or not, I can cut you off one point earlier if God doesn't adhere to his system.

Again, he has a point of radically changing how things work every few thousand years, and this system is already two thousand years old.
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