You CAN game Christian morality
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27-02-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(26-02-2015 11:33 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 11:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What is the issue with God adhering to his rules in your conundrum?

Because if he doesn't, there is no system.


(26-02-2015 11:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Benevolence comes with trusting Jesus/accepting Jesus's atonement. Free will is one the rules God sets to trust Jesus or not...

Assuming he doesn't change the rules. If he does, there might be no atonement.

I agree with you 100%. The rules are consistent from God.

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27-02-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(26-02-2015 05:47 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  A simple thing we can do to make sure that that we are understanding each other is to avoid using terms whose definition we don't share. I think "saved" is a term that should not be used between atheists and Christians because the term means something different to each group. I think we should use a word that we can agree on such as "believe". Also when you say "Those who sin" we must surely take Romans 3 into account and replace that with "everyone". "benevolence" is a loaded term here and needs replacing too.

So, edited...
(25-02-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Everyone may believe before death. Free will. [Ed. I'm not sure I see the connection between belief and free will here]
2. Everyone who believes before death is granted access to heaven, regardless of prior actions.
3. Those who believe are not completely changed but are often radically changed, saved marriages, healthy lifestyles, etc. [Ed. This point doesn't seem to add contribute to the moral system]

Would that be a fair summary of the system you are describing, Q? If you believe or are a child you gain access to heaven. Otherwise you will be tortured forever.

In another thread you said:

(24-02-2015 01:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It would die the death! The Bible talks about the injustices of this world that are only fully corrected in the next. If Stalin is forgiven in the next world, what a merciful God! If Stalin suffers for snuffing millions of lives and oppressing 100 million others, what a righteous God!

So I'm trying to understand your system then. You seem to be saying that the system of Christian access to heaven or hell can only be moral if those who snuff millions of lives and oppress 100 million others are denied access to heaven. Yet the system you describe above seems to be disconnected from a person's actions in life, and instead only connected to their belief. How do you reconcile these views?

Do you reject the system above and instead substitute the Islamic model where everyone's sin is punished in hell proportionately to their magnitude rather than seeing a binary eternal-heaven/eternal-hell choice?

I have a strong aversion to "believe" since millions profess belief, and I prefer "trust". You may have been mistreated by a Christian. Other persons who overall treat their neighbor like they wish to be treated both indicate they trust Jesus and are trustworthy.

I would say there is an amalgam of your views as presented. People are punished/rewarded proportionally to their acts. However, since Jesus atoned/died for all, not just for some, redemption is available to the lowest sinner.

The problem you have with my statement is that the finest person who ever lived, besides Jesus, who was Himself sinless, is still a low sinner. I meet a lot of people who are religious, trying to get into Heaven via good works rather than trusting Jesus. They always Godwin and say they are "no Hitler", yet Hitler never killed anyone by having sex with them--and many of these "good" people have had unprotected sex and sex with multiple partners--they may have transmitted a killer like HIV or HPV, which has been linked to cervical cancer. How good is anyone, really? Simple humility informs us differently.

You see, if you have a problem with letting a Stalin into Heaven, are you then going to say that you yourself are better than him, so much better that you should receive eternal bliss? Logically, you might say you tried to do good and should get--I dunno--50 years of bliss--but all eternity because you sometimes succeeded and sometimes tried?

A balanced view of this theology (and of our natures) informs us both that we are Jekyll/Hydes who do good and bad things both. Stalin was a guardian angel to a few people. Hitler loved his dogs and some of his underlings. He certainly treated Eva Braun well. There are even pedophiles who go to great lengths to try to stop their wickedness. Who are we to judge? God judges...

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27-02-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(26-02-2015 05:59 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 11:33 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Because if he doesn't, there is no system.



Assuming he doesn't change the rules. If he does, there might be no atonement.

And assuming he doesn't lie.

Rather than using apologetics to explain away the issues in your linked post, I'll ask you why it's wrong if God lies. Or, if you like, why it's wrong when I lie and when you lie.

Because before we talk about God gaming a system we have to define the system. I think Robby did that well in this thread and has been patient with my comments, too. But don't say lying is bad unless you have a reason why it's bad.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-02-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:59 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And assuming he doesn't lie.

Rather than using apologetics to explain away the issues in your linked post, I'll ask you why it's wrong if God lies. Or, if you like, why it's wrong when I lie and when you lie.

Because before we talk about God gaming a system we have to define the system. I think Robby did that well in this thread and has been patient with my comments, too. But don't say lying is bad unless you have a reason why it's bad.

How can you talk about the importance of trust as you have said in the previous post, and then ask why would lying be bad? Are you mentally challenged in some way we do not know about?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-02-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:47 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(24-02-2015 01:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible talks about the injustices of this world that are only fully corrected in the next. If Stalin is forgiven in the next world, what a merciful God! If Stalin suffers for snuffing millions of lives and oppressing 100 million others, what a righteous God!
So I'm trying to understand your system then. You seem to be saying that the system of Christian access to heaven or hell can only be moral if those who snuff millions of lives and oppress 100 million others are denied access to heaven. Yet the system you describe above seems to be disconnected from a person's actions in life, and instead only connected to their belief. How do you reconcile these views?

I have a strong aversion to "believe" since millions profess belief, and I prefer "trust". You may have been mistreated by a Christian. Other persons who overall treat their neighbor like they wish to be treated both indicate they trust Jesus and are trustworthy.

I can't follow you to "trust", because it implies existence. I'll follow you to "accept" however, as in "I accept the following proposition". I have edited accordingly and removed the previously-annotated extraneous statements. It now reads:
(25-02-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Everyone may accept Christianity before death.
2. Everyone who accepts Christianity before death is granted access to heaven, regardless of prior actions.

(27-02-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would say there is an amalgam of your views as presented. People are punished/rewarded proportionally to their acts. However, since Jesus atoned/died for all, not just for some, redemption is available to the lowest sinner.

Ok, just I'm sure I understand you let me paraphrase: Those who do not accept Christianity are never granted entry to heaven but are punished proportionally to their acts rather than infinitely. Those who accept Christianity are granted entry to heaven and are rewarded proportionally to their acts.

(27-02-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You see, if you have a problem with letting a Stalin into Heaven, are you then going to say that you yourself are better than him, so much better that you should receive eternal bliss? Logically, you might say you tried to do good and should get--I dunno--50 years of bliss--but all eternity because you sometimes succeeded and sometimes tried?

No I think you aren't addressing the question I raised above. I'm not concerned with whether I am better or worse than Stalin. You chose Stalin as your example, so I'm trying to understand how a system you say "would die a death" if Stalin went unpunished deals with a Stalin who accepts Christianity on his deathbed. Would he be saved? Would he be punished? Would he live in Heaven with those he murdered, but in a shack rather than a palace? How would his afterlife compare to someone who does not accept Christianity but never did anything really bad by human standards?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-02-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:59 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And assuming he doesn't lie.

Rather than using apologetics to explain away the issues in your linked post, I'll ask you why it's wrong if God lies. Or, if you like, why it's wrong when I lie and when you lie.

Because before we talk about God gaming a system we have to define the system. I think Robby did that well in this thread and has been patient with my comments, too. But don't say lying is bad unless you have a reason why it's bad.

I'll give you a hint: It's not because your sky-daddy said so... Drinking Beverage

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28-02-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:59 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And assuming he doesn't lie.

Rather than using apologetics to explain away the issues in your linked post, I'll ask you why it's wrong if God lies. Or, if you like, why it's wrong when I lie and when you lie.

Because before we talk about God gaming a system we have to define the system. I think Robby did that well in this thread and has been patient with my comments, too. But don't say lying is bad unless you have a reason why it's bad.

Your explanations mean nothing, all you are doing is explaining your fantasy world which allows you to continue believing.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-03-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 11:33 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Because if he doesn't, there is no system.
...
Assuming he doesn't change the rules. If he does, there might be no atonement.

I agree with you 100%. The rules are consistent from God.

What do you mean by this? That the source of the rules is the same, even if the rules themselves are subject to change, or what?
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02-03-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 10:49 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Rather than using apologetics to explain away the issues in your linked post, I'll ask you why it's wrong if God lies. Or, if you like, why it's wrong when I lie and when you lie.

Because before we talk about God gaming a system we have to define the system. I think Robby did that well in this thread and has been patient with my comments, too. But don't say lying is bad unless you have a reason why it's bad.

How can you talk about the importance of trust as you have said in the previous post, and then ask why would lying be bad? Are you mentally challenged in some way we do not know about?

It's simple. Because 1) Jesus is trustworthy and good. 2) Robby is making assumptions about lying, gaming and the system that include objective morals and ethics. 3) Sometimes it can be good to lie.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(27-02-2015 09:00 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have a strong aversion to "believe" since millions profess belief, and I prefer "trust". You may have been mistreated by a Christian. Other persons who overall treat their neighbor like they wish to be treated both indicate they trust Jesus and are trustworthy.

I can't follow you to "trust", because it implies existence. I'll follow you to "accept" however, as in "I accept the following proposition". I have edited accordingly and removed the previously-annotated extraneous statements. It now reads:
(25-02-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Everyone may accept Christianity before death.
2. Everyone who accepts Christianity before death is granted access to heaven, regardless of prior actions.

(27-02-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would say there is an amalgam of your views as presented. People are punished/rewarded proportionally to their acts. However, since Jesus atoned/died for all, not just for some, redemption is available to the lowest sinner.

Ok, just I'm sure I understand you let me paraphrase: Those who do not accept Christianity are never granted entry to heaven but are punished proportionally to their acts rather than infinitely. Those who accept Christianity are granted entry to heaven and are rewarded proportionally to their acts.

(27-02-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You see, if you have a problem with letting a Stalin into Heaven, are you then going to say that you yourself are better than him, so much better that you should receive eternal bliss? Logically, you might say you tried to do good and should get--I dunno--50 years of bliss--but all eternity because you sometimes succeeded and sometimes tried?

No I think you aren't addressing the question I raised above. I'm not concerned with whether I am better or worse than Stalin. You chose Stalin as your example, so I'm trying to understand how a system you say "would die a death" if Stalin went unpunished deals with a Stalin who accepts Christianity on his deathbed. Would he be saved? Would he be punished? Would he live in Heaven with those he murdered, but in a shack rather than a palace? How would his afterlife compare to someone who does not accept Christianity but never did anything really bad by human standards?

Stalin would be saved but would not have time to accrue rewards, in your example.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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