You CAN game Christian morality
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02-03-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(02-03-2015 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Stalin would be saved but would not have time to accrue rewards, in your example.

Whereas some harmless bloke who did nothing but good his whole life and happened not to give a flying fuck about your miserable deity gets shafted not gently but fucken hard?

I think your deity can fuck right off Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-03-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(02-03-2015 03:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Stalin would be saved but would not have time to accrue rewards, in your example.

Whereas some harmless bloke who did nothing but good his whole life and happened not to give a flying fuck about your miserable deity gets shafted not gently but fucken hard?

I think your deity can fuck right off Smile

Self-centeredness and self-righteousness can cause us to miss God's kingdom. Who do you know (besides the Lord Jesus) who did "nothing but good his whole life"? Can you tell me more about this hypothetical person? If you are thinking of yourself for an example, you just told the Master of this Universe to drop dead... is that what you mean by "doing good"?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-03-2015, 04:19 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(03-03-2015 02:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  Whereas some harmless bloke who did nothing but good his whole life and happened not to give a flying fuck about your miserable deity gets shafted not gently but fucken hard?

I think your deity can fuck right off Smile

Self-centeredness and self-righteousness can cause us to miss God's kingdom. Who do you know (besides the Lord Jesus) who did "nothing but good his whole life"? Can you tell me more about this hypothetical person? If you are thinking of yourself for an example, you just told the Master of this Universe to drop dead... is that what you mean by "doing good"?

You are self-righteous by calling yourself a "prophet" and knowing god, so go pound sand . And not much is described about this life of jesus between the birth and death fables, so there is that filling in with assumptions again. He refused to help a Cannanite women in need so not all good.

Man it must be an adventure living, and lying, in your head every day!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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03-03-2015, 07:36 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(03-03-2015 02:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  Whereas some harmless bloke who did nothing but good his whole life and happened not to give a flying fuck about your miserable deity gets shafted not gently but fucken hard?

I think your deity can fuck right off Smile

Self-centeredness and self-righteousness can cause us to miss God's kingdom. Who do you know (besides the Lord Jesus) who did "nothing but good his whole life"? Can you tell me more about this hypothetical person? If you are thinking of yourself for an example, you just told the Master of this Universe to drop dead... is that what you mean by "doing good"?
My dear Q ... he is simply using his ... ahem ... god-given, as you'd put it ... powers of observation and evaluation to find your deity wanting by even human standards, much less god's own supposed standards. I wouldn't personally put it quite so ... colorfully ... but I'm afraid I have to agree with his point.

When I was a Christian, I was taught that "god has broad shoulders". He was not, I was given to understand, a hypersensitive soul, apt to have a complete meltdown and have his world fly apart if I had honest questions or issues with him. In other words, I was told, "god can take it". Even then the thought crossed my mind that this depiction is at odds with most of the Old Testament and some of the New ... but I took that worthy (a missionary of some note) at his word. God got an earful from me, and well he should, what with that business with my wife, brother and mother all suffering and dying ... and the missionary was right, god did not pitch a snit. He just ignored me.

Right then I decided that life is way too short to be angry with god for not getting back to me. I've had relatives not get back to me and I just took the hint -- they don't care enough about me to be bothered, so I match their level of interest forthwith. So it was with god and I.

Before long I realized he didn't even exist, unlike the people in my life. What a dummy I was pining for a figment of other people's imagination! That's even denser than pining for people to behave a certain way. At least they're real and occasionally do come through.
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04-03-2015, 06:34 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(02-03-2015 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 09:00 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  I'm not concerned with whether I am better or worse than Stalin. You chose Stalin as your example, so I'm trying to understand how a system you say "would die a death" if Stalin went unpunished deals with a Stalin who accepts Christianity on his deathbed. Would he be saved? Would he be punished? Would he live in Heaven with those he murdered, but in a shack rather than a palace? How would his afterlife compare to someone who does not accept Christianity but never did anything really bad by human standards?
Stalin would be saved but would not have time to accrue rewards, in your example.

OK, so the worst among us is granted access to heaven for a moment of acceptance and spends their afterlife with no reward. What happens to the best among us that do not accept Christianity? I am guessing that "the best among us" is not a relevant clause here as salvation is by grace alone. Am I right on that one? Will they suffer eternally for their lack of acceptance? Is their suffering infinite?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-03-2015, 06:58 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(03-03-2015 02:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  Whereas some harmless bloke who did nothing but good his whole life and happened not to give a flying fuck about your miserable deity gets shafted not gently but fucken hard?

I think your deity can fuck right off Smile

Self-centeredness and self-righteousness can cause us to miss God's kingdom. Who do you know (besides the Lord Jesus) who did "nothing but good his whole life"? Can you tell me more about this hypothetical person? If you are thinking of yourself for an example, you just told the Master of this Universe to drop dead... is that what you mean by "doing good"?

... So somehow you decided that my post was all about me? Well done Mr Projectionist Wink When I refer to a 'good person' I mean someone for example like... Let's say my aunt. Doesn't believe a word of your guys bullshit but does what she can to help other people out. According to your ridiculous tripe that means that she can expect an eternity of torture for having the temerity to not give a shit about your stupid God. Whereas as you just mentioned, even someone who's caused the death and suffering of millions just has to say some magic words and gets counted as one of God's homeboys. Well I guess that's appropriate. God by his own account is a shithead too.

And *you*, you silly pretentious wanker, you think that's a God worthy of worshiping?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-03-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(04-03-2015 06:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 02:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Self-centeredness and self-righteousness can cause us to miss God's kingdom. Who do you know (besides the Lord Jesus) who did "nothing but good his whole life"? Can you tell me more about this hypothetical person? If you are thinking of yourself for an example, you just told the Master of this Universe to drop dead... is that what you mean by "doing good"?

... So somehow you decided that my post was all about me? Well done Mr Projectionist Wink When I refer to a 'good person' I mean someone for example like... Let's say my aunt. Doesn't believe a word of your guys bullshit but does what she can to help other people out. According to your ridiculous tripe that means that she can expect an eternity of torture for having the temerity to not give a shit about your stupid God. Whereas as you just mentioned, even someone who's caused the death and suffering of millions just has to say some magic words and gets counted as one of God's homeboys. Well I guess that's appropriate. God by his own account is a shithead too.

And *you*, you silly pretentious wanker, you think that's a God worthy of worshiping?

While I'm certain your aunt, and you personally, and me personally, and my aunt, try to do good to others and leave this world better than we find it, none of the four of us fit your hypothetical "does good always"--so being a witnessing Christian, of course I used you as an example.

Jesus did good always, then died for us as a sinless sacrifice.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2015, 01:06 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(04-03-2015 06:34 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Stalin would be saved but would not have time to accrue rewards, in your example.

OK, so the worst among us is granted access to heaven for a moment of acceptance and spends their afterlife with no reward. What happens to the best among us that do not accept Christianity? I am guessing that "the best among us" is not a relevant clause here as salvation is by grace alone. Am I right on that one? Will they suffer eternally for their lack of acceptance? Is their suffering infinite?

No one's suffering is infinite. It is eternal. When I stub my toe, I wish the pain would disappear. It does, eventually. No one in Hell will have their regret go away, their self-condemnation or their loneliness. Eternal means never ceasing. Infinite means of immense power or pain. "These go away into eternal [not infinite] punishment," Jesus said.

I believe that you or I are better off in Hell than Hitler, but that makes sense of fair play and a level field. I have no intention of going to Hell, however.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(04-03-2015 01:06 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have no intention of going to Hell, however.

But what if you're worshipping the wrong God and Allah or Vishnu sends you to Hell? That would be every bit as just (or unjust) as your God sending Muslims or Hindus to Hell simply because they worship the wrong God (or worship the right God in the wrong way). If I were British, I would say "That's daft." This is one of many reason why I think it's all bullshit. A just God does not condemn people to eternal torture because they happened to be taught the "wrong" religion.
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05-03-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: You CAN game Christian morality
(04-03-2015 01:06 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 06:34 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  OK, so the worst among us is granted access to heaven for a moment of acceptance and spends their afterlife with no reward. What happens to the best among us that do not accept Christianity? I am guessing that "the best among us" is not a relevant clause here as salvation is by grace alone. Am I right on that one? Will they suffer eternally for their lack of acceptance? Is their suffering infinite?
No one's suffering is infinite. It is eternal. When I stub my toe, I wish the pain would disappear. It does, eventually. No one in Hell will have their regret go away, their self-condemnation or their loneliness. Eternal means never ceasing. Infinite means of immense power or pain. "These go away into eternal [not infinite] punishment," Jesus said.
I believe that you or I are better off in Hell than Hitler, but that makes sense of fair play and a level field. I have no intention of going to Hell, however.

Hrrm... interesting. So you think the sum of punishment over an infinite time period will not be infinite, presumably because the actual punishment will diminish over time to zero? I struggle to envisage what that would look like. Wouldn't an eternity of loneliness be an infinite punishment in its own right? Would we be remade not to feel loneliness?

Well let's summarise then:
- The best among us who accept Christianity will be granted access to heaven and will be rewarded
- The Stalins among us who accept Christianity will be granted access to heaven but will otherwise not be rewarded
- The best among us who do not accept Christianity will be denied access to heaven. Their punishment will cover an infinite period of time but the sum of their punishment over time will be finite.
- The Stalins among us who do not accept Christianity will denied access to heaven. Their punishment will will cover an infinite period of time but the sum of their punishment over time will be finite. The sum of their punishment will be greater than that of the best among us.

I can't help thinking when I reflect on that system that the only real sin in Christianity is non-acceptance of Christianity. Anyone who does accept Christianity is rewarded with access to heaven, never mind their lack of better rewards. Anyone who does not accept Christianity is punished for an infinite span of time, albeit a finite quantity of punishment. The goodness or morality of a person besides that one decision of acceptance or non-acceptance of Christianity seems almost irrelevant when the question of heaven or hell is decided by that single question.

It seems that if Christianity is to have a system of morality it must be orthogonal to the question of whether someone goes to heaven or hell. The system you describe sits in contrast to the popular notion that the good go to heaven and the bad go to hell, or that the good and evils of this life are repaid in the next.

I guess you might say that non-acceptance of Christianity is the only real sin and holds this special place as the sole determiner of heaven or hell because it is a rejection of God?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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