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19-02-2012, 08:31 AM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(19-02-2012 08:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-02-2012 01:38 AM)Egor Wrote:  I can make a positive case for God, but if you're going to say you don't believe it, I can't force your mind. I have a burden of proof because I say God exists, but I don't have to meet a constantly moving desire for proof, which is what skeptics insist on.

And in fact, you are not the rational one, not as a skeptic. Because you refuse to take a stand in the truth. Either God exists or does not exist--we know that. But you won't move to either side, because you don't want to present an argument. That's not being intellectually honest and that's not consistent with a rational scientific approach to knowledge.

If you want to be scientific, you have to take one of those hypotheses and prove it true, which will make the other false, or prove it false, which will make the other true. And then you have to be willing to live with that truth. But this pseudo-atheism, which is really agnosticism, is just intellectual laziness.

Nuh uh. About things which we do not know. Here's a thought. Let's talk about Erxomai's ability to play the piano.

I don't know Erxomai, so now when I am asked "can Erxomai play the piano" I must say "I don't know", not "Yes" or "No".

By insisting that we answer yes or no to a question which is unknown *you* are the one being irrational.

To extend the piano analogy, if I get a whole bunch of posters in the mail advertising a piano concert by Erxomai, then I have some evidence that he can probably play the piano - it's not proven for certain but it seems a lot more likely now.

For us, when we say we cannot prove that God does not exist, it does not mean that we abdicate any opinion on the matter - as far as we can tell, the evidence heavily favours a no God scenario. We have no *certainty* but we have a weight of evidence that seems to fit much more easily with a no God situation than with a God situation. For this evidence I refer you to the God Delusion, which I think you have already read and found wanting.

Why we say that the burden of proof is on you is simply because you want *us* to believe that the evidence is the other way around - that God is more likely than not - in fact, as far as you're concerned, God *is* certain. Because you want us to believe *your* point of view instead of our own, it's your responsibility to change our minds - to lay out the proof. If we find that proof insufficient, it's still up to *you* to do the proving.

I can assure you, if I had the ability to play the piano (at least well), I'd want the whole world to know. I'd make it easy for people to hear my music. I wouldn't leave it up to debate.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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19-02-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
Egor, you need to clarify which god you are talking about, and then maybe I play your game.
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19-02-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(18-02-2012 09:49 PM)Egor Wrote:  You can say you don't believe God exists, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of whether or not He actually does exist. In other words, who cares what you believe?
"You can say you believe God exists, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of whether or not He actually does exist. In other words, who cares what you believe?"
It's a two-way street you know?

And you're right, it doesn't matter what any of us believe.
Not believing in him if he does exist doesn't make him go away.
On the other hand, believing in him if he does not exist doesn't suddenly make him real.

Contrary to what you might have been told, atheists do not know with 100% certainty that there is no god, any more than believers know with 100% certainty that there is a god.

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19-02-2012, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2012 08:53 AM by Shannow.)
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(18-02-2012 09:49 PM)Egor Wrote:  All you do is end up making ridiculous demands like: "Please show me two peer-reviewed documents that God exists."

Egor - I asked you to provide evidence that the Egyptians were too dumb to understand the Hebrew God and also asked you to provide evidence that Atheists have a goal to (your words) "live as free from morality as possible".

At no point did I ask you to prove God exists. Given your track record in answering questions I've asked you (currently 0 for about 10) I'm not surprised you've struggled again.

But all this was done in another forum thread?! You have not expended any effort on answering these questions, and have instead created a separate thread effectively saying that we're ridiculous for requesting evidence to support your claims?! Perhaps your time could be better spent actually researching so that you can respond to criticism in a rational & confident manner rather than always attacking people for having the audacity to think your ideas are utterly ridiculous.

(18-02-2012 09:49 PM)Egor Wrote:  A skeptic just needs to go about living his or her life and shut up. They have nothing to add to any conversation about God.

okay - forum 101 - the reason a forum exists is to propagate debate. After 80,000 posts we're still going strong. We're not going to shut up any time soon, we will just get nosier and nosier.

"Christianity is like a diet where you eat lots of chocolate cake all week, and then on Sunday you mentally scold yourself and "try again" only to repeat the cycle." - Buddy Christ
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19-02-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(19-02-2012 08:31 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I can assure you, if I had the ability to play the piano (at least well), I'd want the whole world to know. I'd make it easy for people to hear my music. I wouldn't leave it up to debate.

Well at least the Veridican God in His mercy to the rest of us has given you the self-knowledge to spare us Wink
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19-02-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
All laws of the universe we've ever found and will ever find are meaningless with an omnipotent god, he'd be able to negate and modify them all at will. The fact that our current model of the universe says such a thing not possible means an omnipotent god is not possible under our current model of the universe.

Paradoxes also do not exist in our universe (sure we can make verbal/graphical manipulations that sound like a paradox but those are not real representations of reality, an Escher's drawing for example is just a 3d representation of our universe and its distortions can't be representated in a 3d environment (try making a sculpture out of it)). Of course you can have a specific tool perfect for some certain task or say that your wife is perfect, but general perfection is paradoxal and so does not exist in reality.

Laplace's Demon is a thought experiment proposed by Laplace in 1814 in order to defend Determinism. If you check the Wiki page you'll find at least 5 arguments against its existence. You can read this as at least five arguments against the existence of an omnipotent entity residing in this universe.

As you can see the claim that there is a omnipotent, omniscient and perfect god does not agree with our current model of the universe, claiming that there is such a god is claiming the model is wrong. While we shouldn't worship the model the model exists so we can take better rational decisions based on the knowledge we currently have of the universe. The model is still being developed as new evidences and better theories appear but in order to say a certain part of it (or all of it) is wrong you need new evidence. Evidence that you do not have in order to make such a claim. If you make such a claim without the support of evidence then you're making it based on wishfull thinking, you want your new model of the universe to be true and claim it to be true despite the fact that evidence does not support it so well as it supports the current model.

I'm not saying the model is finished and we know everything, I'm saying that we have a limited knowledge of the universe and in order to make better rational decisions we must extend this knowledge, more knowledge means we will be able to take better decisions and in order to take the best decisions we must discover all variables we can. If our current knowledge of the univers says there is no such a thing as omnisience, omnipotence and perfection then it's irrational to believe there is such an entity without evidence to support your claim. At the same time saying that there is no such thing as god does not goes against the knowledge, it's not improbable, it's not implausible, in fact if I make such a claim nothing will have to change in the model. All the evidence in the world is in accordance to my claim (even if it does not support it). Now if I say there is not a single man called Tereiveyati Ashounci Wababilaobaloo Bilao living at Pakistan who is 37 years old and has pink hair, that claim is possible under the model, it might be improbable, but is not implausible and is in fact possible, I have no evidences to support my claim but the model won't have to change. Even non-magical unicorns are a genethical possibility under the model. While I don't believe in the existence of unicorns nor in the existence of Tereiveyati Ashounci Wababilaobaloo Bilao both claims are possible under the model, god is not.

Disregard my old posts.
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19-02-2012, 01:19 PM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(19-02-2012 08:24 AM)Ben Wrote:  You know, it dawned on me: If you all aren't going to flat out deny that unicorns exist, you really don't have anything to talk about.

You can say you don't believe unicorns exist, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of whether or not they actually do exist. In other words, who cares what you believe?

The fact is you have no counter-argument. There is no a-unicornist argument, and you all know it. That's why you're so careful to not make the claim "Unicorns do not exist."

But unless you make that claim, there's nothing to debate. All you do is end up making ridiculous demands like: "Please show me two peer-reviewed documents that unicorns exist."

A skeptic just needs to go about living his or her life and shut up. They have nothing to add to any conversation about unicorns.

I think this man's point will suffice. No need to continue on.
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19-02-2012, 02:37 PM
 
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(19-02-2012 08:35 AM)Reactor Wrote:  Egor, you need to clarify which god you are talking about, and then maybe I play your game.

So far, this is the best post in this thread. Because you're absolutely right: most debate about God goes on without any agreed upon definition of God. One atheist is arguing against some Old Testament story, another argues against Christians' behavior. Theist, on the other hand, just say "God." And "God" means anything they want it to mean at any time.

If you and I can't agree on a definition of God, we can't have a debate. But Veridicans do have a positive definition, and since I am writing a book about believing in God, or how to believe in God, I would like to debate it.

Now, I know this debate will not end in conversion of either one of us. That cannot be the criteria for success or failure. But it could end up in me having to modify my definition of God, and I suppose if it does, depending on what that modification looks like, you could say you have proven my notion of God, as it is now, does not exist.

If I propose my definition and you don't agree that it is a definition of God at all, just say so. There is no point debating/discussing if what I propose isn't even what you would call "God."

Nevertheless, here it is:

No...wait...I will make a new post for this.

The rest of this post can wither on the vine as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I'll even capitulate: Atheists, even though they won't say "God does not exist." still have something to add to the discussion.

There. Now I'm out of this string.
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19-02-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
Egor... wow... you really have changed Smile
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19-02-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: You Have Nothing to Add
(19-02-2012 02:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Egor... wow... you really have changed Smile

It's the power of the planet Veridian at work.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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