"You are not alone"
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13-07-2010, 06:53 PM
"You are not alone"
Hello all

I'm fairly new to this site and I've been making my way through it. I was just reading the "You are not alone" section, and I noted the comment about theists throwing out the examples of Hitler and Stalin to throw atheists into disrepute.

I don't think there is any historical doubt that Stalin was an atheist. I equally don't think there is any historical doubt that he was a monster. I'm not sure what the perceived correlation is between those two things, and I don't think there is any. I guess my point is no one ever claimed that being an atheist automatically meant you were somehow morally superior. Sometimes people are evil. And, Stalin did not murder people in the name of godlessness. Can the big 3 religions make that claim? I don't think so.

But, I digress.....

The historical record on Hitler, however, shows that he most likely was NOT an atheist. Now, while he was clearly pathological and a master of propaganda, it is very possible his public statements invoking God and providence were lies, and he was. But, so what? He routinely invokes God and the concept of Providence in his speeches and his writings to win over heats and minds. And, these hearts and minds followed him into the abyss.

So, for anyone who is confronted with the argument about the "evil" of atheism and given Hitler and Stalin as "proof", I suggest you do respond with the following:
1. concede that Stalin was an atheist and move on. No point in arguing this since he demonstrably was. It proves nothing. If someone wants to push this point, bring up the comment about him not killing in the name of godlessness and the record of that person's religion. Perhaps have them sit down and watch "The Inquisition" from Mel Brooks "History of the World Part 1" to shut them up.
2. Ask them what the secular rational was for the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Without religion, do we have a Holocaust? Why would anyone care?
3. Ask them why Hitler made such a point to invoke religion and the Christian god into his rhetoric and speeches? Why did he say he was doing god's work? Even if he did not believe in god, clearly his followers did and he used that insidious belief to deliver them not from, but into, evil.

Here is a useful site for some of his quotes on the topic: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/misched...itler.html

But, at minimum, and at the risk of being presumptuous 6 posts into my tenure here, I think the site should be amended to remove the Hitler reference as an atheist because I don't see any reason to concede ownership of that particular monster.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-07-2010, 05:29 AM
RE: "You are not alone"
of course stalin was an atheist, thats a part of marxism, but lenin was a god-like person to him and thats why he balsamed his body even though lenin wanted to be buried without making it into a big deal. lenin also didnt want himself to become an icon of the soviet union and he was against the idea of stalin becoming a leader as he was too cruel and violent. but stalin didnt care, soon all the power was his and he made lenin into a christ like icon for the people and started a somekinda lenin-cult. all against lenins will.

hitler is more known as a monster because he cared what people will be sent to his camps, jews. stalin killed many times more people by sending random people to siperia to slavery or just shooting them right away.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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14-07-2010, 06:05 PM
RE: "You are not alone"
In regards to Stalin; people do bad things. Christians do bad things, Jews do bad things, atheists do bad things. It has less to do with religion, and more to do with ones morals.

Does it matter if Hitler was an atheist? As you said, his followers were Christian. He used Christianity to gain support. The people physically doing the killing, was doing it in the name of god.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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16-07-2010, 12:44 AM
RE: "You are not alone"
I think that most religious debaters fail to see that Nazism and Communism were themselves religions. They had rituals and myths, and the 'god' figure was replaced by a 'leader' figure (the cult of personality), who was assigned attributes almost equal to those of a deity. For more info on this, just google 'political religion'.

So, if Nazis and Communists committed acts of cruelty and genocide, it was not in the name of atheism, but in the name of their respective doctrines, and if Christian (or other) believers were persecuted, it was because their religion was seen as a rival, as something that might thwart the rulers' plans. Of course, the real reason for the killing was the accession to and consolidation of power, which led to all those who were perceived as a threat being ruthlessly 'purged', and this was disguised as a necessary measure in order to further and protect the tenets held by the core ideology of the party. Totalitarianism can only be effective if there is a common belief that is used to manipulate people and ensure their unconditional submission. In the case of Nazism, it was the utopia of a superior, perfect race. In the case of Communism, it was the utopia of social equality and end of exploitation. In both cases, atheism had nothing to do with it, and if they failed, it was because the ideals proposed by these doctrines were impossible to apply to the real world, and because those who were supposed to enforce these ideals were corrupt and merely sought power for themselves above all else.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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17-07-2010, 05:30 AM
RE: "You are not alone"
"So, if Nazis and Communists committed acts of cruelty and genocide, it was not in the name of atheism, but in the name of their respective doctrines, and if Christian (or other) believers were persecuted, it was because their religion was seen as a rival, as something that might thwart the rulers' plans. Of course, the real reason for the killing was the accession to and consolidation of power, which led to all those who were perceived as a threat being ruthlessly 'purged', and this was disguised as a necessary measure in order to further and protect the tenets held by the core ideology of the party."

That was exactly my point.

So, can we get the website changed now. Wink

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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17-07-2010, 01:59 PM
 
RE: "You are not alone"
If you're an Atheist, you must be a Communist... At least according to Glenn Beck...

But anyway, I'll say it even though it was already mentioned: Stalin didn't do the things he did out of Atheism.
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27-07-2010, 04:12 AM
 
RE: "You are not alone"
Well I have read this all of the stuff and just want to say that I really feel very good. And the idea which comes in your mind to share this with us thats really very awesome. I like its that much.
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