You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
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06-04-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
Hey, Cantor.

That's a perfectly cromulent use of the pejorative Cool

Hey, Quidsane.

Quote:Of course I possess a discriminatory perception of christians.
Quote:...raised in the most liberal household possible, free from religion, from racism, any kind of bigotry...

What you are experiencing is called cognitive dissonance. You fancy yourself as someone who is incapable of discrimination, and yet you are clearly discriminatory. You resolve this by claiming that what you are doing is not discriminatory. It is. Anyone reading your post can see it as clear as day.

Please understand that I'm not just trying to make you a public spectacle. Something has occurred and you are denying it. I'm just trying to get you to see that you are denying it. If you refuse to see that, well, such is life. I have no ill will towards you.

Quote:You have just described exactly how I have been looked down upon by christians for over 40 years.

I have no reason to doubt that certain Christians have looked down on you or discriminated against you. But this isn't a justification. This is a recipe for infinite revenge.

And why, if it such a terrible part of your life, would you want to inflict it upon someone else and deny them the humanity that they denied you?

Quote:What is astounding to me is that this is even an issue on an ATHEIST FORUM.

Atheist is not a synonym for bigot. Atheists to not necessarily discriminate against Theists. Disagree? Sure. Criticise? Sure. Engage in discourse? Sure. But this site is the Thinking Atheist, not the Atheist Supremacy Network. It's harsh of me to invoke the word supremacy, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.

Anyhoo, I replied to your post in the Philosophy forum in detail. For this thread, I'll reiterate my point. I don't find what you said acceptable. If you disagree, such is life. My hope however is that you'll understand my point.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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06-04-2012, 08:15 AM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
I think that's crap. You can still be a christian and accept evolution as fact. It doesn't make a bit of sense, but not much does in this world, anyway. I think it would be true to say that fundamental christians that take the bible literally shouldn't be doctors. Creationists should not be allowed to have people's very lives in their hands, when they won't even accept the fact that humans are apes. That's just basic biology, but Jesus... I think it's possible to believe he exists and still be a decent medical doctor.
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06-04-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(05-04-2012 09:56 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 03:42 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  As a nursing student I'm finding that evolution is highly needed in the medical field. The comments I'm seeing really don't add up to the true severity of the situation. Misinformation that is issued daily that directly ties to evolutionary predictions do apply to doctors.
I think you're equivocating "medical field". Unless a doctor is directly working with discovering new vaccinations, it's unlikely that he or she would need a working knowledge of evolution to do his or her job. One can accept that vaccinations are needed every year and that they constantly change without believing in evolution... my theist parents would be great examples of such people. But it is my understanding that a person's symptoms do not reflect evolution nor require knowledge of evolution to translate, so evolution is not necessary for diagnosing, and medicines likewise do not change according to evolution so it isn't necessary to understand human evolution to match the right medicine with the symptoms.

I'm not a nursing student, so I could be wrong. If I am, please enlighten me on what a doctor or nurse needs to know about evolution to properly diagnose or treat patients.
Understanding evolution and understanding how to use it can change a mindset completely. They (doctors) fail almost daily to inform their patients about the hazards of not taking things like antibiotics completely, thereby creating a stronger strain. It goes much further and deeper than just a simple believing it and not believing it. Understanding how and why things evolve can lead to a better understanding of what a problem is and how to address it, which experts to call upon and so on. Many people view doctors almost as demi-gods and take their knowledge as fact regardless that it may be right or wrong. Doctors are more than just people that diagnose. These are just simple examples.

Quote:Evolution in Health and Disease
Quote:Implications for medical practice, research, and education

Clinicians can profit from viewing infection from the pathogen's point of view and being able to anticipate the evolutionary responses of pathogens to treatments with antibiotics and vaccines. The coevolution of pathogens with our bodies, our behaviors, our interventions, and our drug industries is ongoing, incessant, and inescapable. The evolutionary view help clinicians dealing with reproductive medicine, cancer, and autoimmune disease to understand how our bodies are mismatched to modernity and how far biological adaptation lags behind cultural change. The diseases of civilization include significant proportions of cancers, allergies, asthma, obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.
.....

What doctors need to know about evolution and why

1. How natural selection works--By this we mean not just memorizing 'variation, inheritance, and differential reproductive success' but being able to describe, with examples, how natural selection explains why organisms are the way they are. The body is not a machine designed from the first principles by an omniscient engineer. Evolution has assembled it by tinkering with the variants available, every step of the way.
2. Trade-offs and constraints are ubiquitous--Because selection has pushed the design of organisms to limits determined by trade-offs and constraints, improving one thing often makes something else worse. Because some trade-offs are not obvious, unpleasant surprises are possible. Because constraints are real, the optimal has often not been attained.
3. The distinction between proximate and evolutionary explanations. For instance, those who think that type I diabetes is caused only by genes and autoimmune reactions have often not considered why those genes persist and why the autoimmune reactions evolved as they have.
4. The distinction between micro- and macroevolution--Some think that evolution is only about anthropological studies of bones and primates and confuse that with studies of changes in gene frequencies.
You can read more on this book here: http://books.google.com/books?id=d_-0LsF...on&f=false

I see it everyday in class when our anatomy instructor spews out "god did it." There is no increased need to find out how or why something is the way it is. As for your diagnosing, anyone can do that simply by following the motions. Until you research the subject more thoroughly you quite possibly won't understand all of the implications that follow. Sure you can disagree with someone on here like the OP but just from what I'm reading you guys need to do a lot more researching before you reply in such ways. Even before I started learning more about this I would never have come out and said doctors don't need to know it especially when I didn't understand it better myself.

I even read many articles from doctors that are quite resistant to the idea they need to know evolution. I was amazed at the mindset. They simply disagree because they don't understand the importance. They don't know for sure, most of them were never taught in detail about evolution.

There are tons of resources that can explain better why evolution is necessary in the medical field. Not only would it help in nearly all parts of the medical field, it would also improve our lives as clients/patients.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

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10-04-2012, 07:17 PM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(06-04-2012 10:22 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 09:56 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I think you're equivocating "medical field". Unless a doctor is directly working with discovering new vaccinations, it's unlikely that he or she would need a working knowledge of evolution to do his or her job. One can accept that vaccinations are needed every year and that they constantly change without believing in evolution... my theist parents would be great examples of such people. But it is my understanding that a person's symptoms do not reflect evolution nor require knowledge of evolution to translate, so evolution is not necessary for diagnosing, and medicines likewise do not change according to evolution so it isn't necessary to understand human evolution to match the right medicine with the symptoms.

I'm not a nursing student, so I could be wrong. If I am, please enlighten me on what a doctor or nurse needs to know about evolution to properly diagnose or treat patients.
Understanding evolution and understanding how to use it can change a mindset completely. They (doctors) fail almost daily to inform their patients about the hazards of not taking things like antibiotics completely, thereby creating a stronger strain. It goes much further and deeper than just a simple believing it and not believing it. Understanding how and why things evolve can lead to a better understanding of what a problem is and how to address it, which experts to call upon and so on. Many people view doctors almost as demi-gods and take their knowledge as fact regardless that it may be right or wrong. Doctors are more than just people that diagnose. These are just simple examples.

Quote:Evolution in Health and Disease
Quote:Implications for medical practice, research, and education

Clinicians can profit from viewing infection from the pathogen's point of view and being able to anticipate the evolutionary responses of pathogens to treatments with antibiotics and vaccines. The coevolution of pathogens with our bodies, our behaviors, our interventions, and our drug industries is ongoing, incessant, and inescapable. The evolutionary view help clinicians dealing with reproductive medicine, cancer, and autoimmune disease to understand how our bodies are mismatched to modernity and how far biological adaptation lags behind cultural change. The diseases of civilization include significant proportions of cancers, allergies, asthma, obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.
.....

What doctors need to know about evolution and why

1. How natural selection works--By this we mean not just memorizing 'variation, inheritance, and differential reproductive success' but being able to describe, with examples, how natural selection explains why organisms are the way they are. The body is not a machine designed from the first principles by an omniscient engineer. Evolution has assembled it by tinkering with the variants available, every step of the way.
2. Trade-offs and constraints are ubiquitous--Because selection has pushed the design of organisms to limits determined by trade-offs and constraints, improving one thing often makes something else worse. Because some trade-offs are not obvious, unpleasant surprises are possible. Because constraints are real, the optimal has often not been attained.
3. The distinction between proximate and evolutionary explanations. For instance, those who think that type I diabetes is caused only by genes and autoimmune reactions have often not considered why those genes persist and why the autoimmune reactions evolved as they have.
4. The distinction between micro- and macroevolution--Some think that evolution is only about anthropological studies of bones and primates and confuse that with studies of changes in gene frequencies.
You can read more on this book here: http://books.google.com/books?id=d_-0LsF...on&f=false

I see it everyday in class when our anatomy instructor spews out "god did it." There is no increased need to find out how or why something is the way it is. As for your diagnosing, anyone can do that simply by following the motions. Until you research the subject more thoroughly you quite possibly won't understand all of the implications that follow. Sure you can disagree with someone on here like the OP but just from what I'm reading you guys need to do a lot more researching before you reply in such ways. Even before I started learning more about this I would never have come out and said doctors don't need to know it especially when I didn't understand it better myself.

I even read many articles from doctors that are quite resistant to the idea they need to know evolution. I was amazed at the mindset. They simply disagree because they don't understand the importance. They don't know for sure, most of them were never taught in detail about evolution.

There are tons of resources that can explain better why evolution is necessary in the medical field. Not only would it help in nearly all parts of the medical field, it would also improve our lives as clients/patients.
That's a great post and it clearly does make an impact. Having a better working knowledge of a system will help you better diagnose it in dozens of fields, it obviously would be significant in the medical field.

Although, the question doesn't say you can't be a good doctor and a christian. It's just a false statement saying, you can't be a M.D. and a christian.

The little section of someone in the A) column in the OP, is still a M.D. He has the degree. Another post said take the degree out of it... but then what makes someone a doctor? I'm not aware of anything but a degree that makes you qualified to say you are a doctor.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-04-2012, 07:21 PM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(06-04-2012 07:02 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Cantor.

That's a perfectly cromulent use of the pejorative Cool

Hey, Quidsane.

Quote:Of course I possess a discriminatory perception of christians.
Quote:...raised in the most liberal household possible, free from religion, from racism, any kind of bigotry...

What you are experiencing is called cognitive dissonance. You fancy yourself as someone who is incapable of discrimination, and yet you are clearly discriminatory. You resolve this by claiming that what you are doing is not discriminatory. It is. Anyone reading your post can see it as clear as day.

Please understand that I'm not just trying to make you a public spectacle. Something has occurred and you are denying it. I'm just trying to get you to see that you are denying it. If you refuse to see that, well, such is life. I have no ill will towards you.

Quote:You have just described exactly how I have been looked down upon by christians for over 40 years.

I have no reason to doubt that certain Christians have looked down on you or discriminated against you. But this isn't a justification. This is a recipe for infinite revenge.

And why, if it such a terrible part of your life, would you want to inflict it upon someone else and deny them the humanity that they denied you?

Quote:What is astounding to me is that this is even an issue on an ATHEIST FORUM.

Atheist is not a synonym for bigot. Atheists to not necessarily discriminate against Theists. Disagree? Sure. Criticise? Sure. Engage in discourse? Sure. But this site is the Thinking Atheist, not the Atheist Supremacy Network. It's harsh of me to invoke the word supremacy, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.

Anyhoo, I replied to your post in the Philosophy forum in detail. For this thread, I'll reiterate my point. I don't find what you said acceptable. If you disagree, such is life. My hope however is that you'll understand my point.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Sup, Ghost?
Did I just see you defend atheism here? Tongue

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10-04-2012, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 08:27 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(06-04-2012 10:22 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 09:56 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I think you're equivocating "medical field". Unless a doctor is directly working with discovering new vaccinations, it's unlikely that he or she would need a working knowledge of evolution to do his or her job. One can accept that vaccinations are needed every year and that they constantly change without believing in evolution... my theist parents would be great examples of such people. But it is my understanding that a person's symptoms do not reflect evolution nor require knowledge of evolution to translate, so evolution is not necessary for diagnosing, and medicines likewise do not change according to evolution so it isn't necessary to understand human evolution to match the right medicine with the symptoms.

I'm not a nursing student, so I could be wrong. If I am, please enlighten me on what a doctor or nurse needs to know about evolution to properly diagnose or treat patients.
Understanding evolution and understanding how to use it can change a mindset completely. They (doctors) fail almost daily to inform their patients about the hazards of not taking things like antibiotics completely, thereby creating a stronger strain. It goes much further and deeper than just a simple believing it and not believing it. Understanding how and why things evolve can lead to a better understanding of what a problem is and how to address it, which experts to call upon and so on. Many people view doctors almost as demi-gods and take their knowledge as fact regardless that it may be right or wrong. Doctors are more than just people that diagnose. These are just simple examples.

Quote:Evolution in Health and Disease
Quote:Implications for medical practice, research, and education

Clinicians can profit from viewing infection from the pathogen's point of view and being able to anticipate the evolutionary responses of pathogens to treatments with antibiotics and vaccines. The coevolution of pathogens with our bodies, our behaviors, our interventions, and our drug industries is ongoing, incessant, and inescapable. The evolutionary view help clinicians dealing with reproductive medicine, cancer, and autoimmune disease to understand how our bodies are mismatched to modernity and how far biological adaptation lags behind cultural change. The diseases of civilization include significant proportions of cancers, allergies, asthma, obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.
.....

What doctors need to know about evolution and why

1. How natural selection works--By this we mean not just memorizing 'variation, inheritance, and differential reproductive success' but being able to describe, with examples, how natural selection explains why organisms are the way they are. The body is not a machine designed from the first principles by an omniscient engineer. Evolution has assembled it by tinkering with the variants available, every step of the way.
2. Trade-offs and constraints are ubiquitous--Because selection has pushed the design of organisms to limits determined by trade-offs and constraints, improving one thing often makes something else worse. Because some trade-offs are not obvious, unpleasant surprises are possible. Because constraints are real, the optimal has often not been attained.
3. The distinction between proximate and evolutionary explanations. For instance, those who think that type I diabetes is caused only by genes and autoimmune reactions have often not considered why those genes persist and why the autoimmune reactions evolved as they have.
4. The distinction between micro- and macroevolution--Some think that evolution is only about anthropological studies of bones and primates and confuse that with studies of changes in gene frequencies.
You can read more on this book here: http://books.google.com/books?id=d_-0LsF...on&f=false

I see it everyday in class when our anatomy instructor spews out "god did it." There is no increased need to find out how or why something is the way it is. As for your diagnosing, anyone can do that simply by following the motions. Until you research the subject more thoroughly you quite possibly won't understand all of the implications that follow. Sure you can disagree with someone on here like the OP but just from what I'm reading you guys need to do a lot more researching before you reply in such ways. Even before I started learning more about this I would never have come out and said doctors don't need to know it especially when I didn't understand it better myself.

I even read many articles from doctors that are quite resistant to the idea they need to know evolution. I was amazed at the mindset. They simply disagree because they don't understand the importance. They don't know for sure, most of them were never taught in detail about evolution.

There are tons of resources that can explain better why evolution is necessary in the medical field. Not only would it help in nearly all parts of the medical field, it would also improve our lives as clients/patients.
Please don't attack the person --- attack the argument. I'm sure that you're already aware of the logical fallacy entailed in this, as you made the claim elsewhere that you've been testing this forum for logic in arguments.

The fact that you have an anatomy instructor that "spews out god did it" suggests that you can not only pass an anatomy course but teach it to the others with the mindset that you feel is mutually exclusive with expertise in such a field. But even in the evidence you present, you don't counter this idea that evolutionary education is unnecessary, but rather you've argued against a straw man that I didn't present: that knowledge of evolution would make you a doctor with a "better understanding" of his job. Even in the book you cited, despite its use of the word "need" in "what doctors need to know about evolution", it's still an argument about how knowledge of evolution is beneficial, not how it is necessary.

Let me put it this way: I could be a mechanic without knowing the history of automobiles. Even if I didn't believe that a Ford Taurus is the result of the Ford Motor Company making small, incremental changes in design from the Model T to many other models over the years and instead thought that the Ford Taurus "always was", that still wouldn't make me incapable of diagnosing the problem with your Taurus or fixing it. In fact, I could still be an "expert" mechanic without the background knowledge. I agree with you that I could be a better mechanic with such knowledge, but I was arguing that it isn't "necessary". It isn't necessary.

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10-04-2012, 09:14 PM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(10-04-2012 08:22 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(06-04-2012 10:22 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  Understanding evolution and understanding how to use it can change a mindset completely. They (doctors) fail almost daily to inform their patients about the hazards of not taking things like antibiotics completely, thereby creating a stronger strain. It goes much further and deeper than just a simple believing it and not believing it. Understanding how and why things evolve can lead to a better understanding of what a problem is and how to address it, which experts to call upon and so on. Many people view doctors almost as demi-gods and take their knowledge as fact regardless that it may be right or wrong. Doctors are more than just people that diagnose. These are just simple examples.

You can read more on this book here: http://books.google.com/books?id=d_-0LsF...on&f=false

I see it everyday in class when our anatomy instructor spews out "god did it." There is no increased need to find out how or why something is the way it is. As for your diagnosing, anyone can do that simply by following the motions. Until you research the subject more thoroughly you quite possibly won't understand all of the implications that follow. Sure you can disagree with someone on here like the OP but just from what I'm reading you guys need to do a lot more researching before you reply in such ways. Even before I started learning more about this I would never have come out and said doctors don't need to know it especially when I didn't understand it better myself.

I even read many articles from doctors that are quite resistant to the idea they need to know evolution. I was amazed at the mindset. They simply disagree because they don't understand the importance. They don't know for sure, most of them were never taught in detail about evolution.

There are tons of resources that can explain better why evolution is necessary in the medical field. Not only would it help in nearly all parts of the medical field, it would also improve our lives as clients/patients.
Please don't attack the person --- attack the argument. I'm sure that you're already aware of the logical fallacy entailed in this, as you made the claim elsewhere that you've been testing this forum for logic in arguments.

The fact that you have an anatomy instructor that "spews out god did it" suggests that you can not only pass an anatomy course but teach it to the others with the mindset that you feel is mutually exclusive with expertise in such a field. But even in the evidence you present, you don't counter this idea that evolutionary education is unnecessary, but rather you've argued against a straw man that I didn't present: that knowledge of evolution would make you a doctor with a "better understanding" of his job. Even in the book you cited, despite its use of the word "need" in "what doctors need to know about evolution", it's still an argument about how knowledge of evolution is beneficial, not how it is necessary.

Let me put it this way: I could be a mechanic without knowing the history of automobiles. Even if I didn't believe that a Ford Taurus is the result of the Ford Motor Company making small, incremental changes in design from the Model T to many other models over the years and instead thought that the Ford Taurus "always was", that still wouldn't make me incapable of diagnosing the problem with your Taurus or fixing it. In fact, I could still be an "expert" mechanic without the background knowledge. I agree with you that I could be a better mechanic with such knowledge, but I was arguing that it isn't "necessary". It isn't necessary.
Explain where I attacked a person. I do believe you are misinterpreting me slightly. You asked to be enlightened so I followed up. But you aren't applying the knowledge of evolution to the situations. This is only one book, if you truly want to be enlightened then you will have to brush up on these things I can't post articles upon articles which I'm sure you are aware of how time consuming that will be.

In order for you to fully understand why it would be necessary would mean you would have to study up on it and learn how it applies already but in the medical field isn't called evolution. I can only explain so much as I'm still learning myself. Give me time, maybe I will have more information as I progress or maybe can explain it better.

I've re-read my post, I've yet to find a straw man. You may have to point it out. Please read the post thoroughly. I think you missed some plural statements that didn't just include you. This may be what you are considering a straw man when in fact it was a blanket statement to cover other replies.

The analogy you used with the history doesn't really cover it very well. I was cross trained as a diesel mechanic in the military. Also some other courses as well e.g. Welding, auto-mechanics, HVAC, Network administrator, computer technician and so on. I can happily compare the analogy to this subject and it doesn't add up to the same thing. Especially when it comes to someone's life.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

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10-04-2012, 09:25 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 09:29 PM by Humakt.)
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
Axiomatically untrue. - There are MDs who are christians.

Also there is no prescription against believing in evolutionary biology. And to suggest there is a disservice to both religion and science.

(05-04-2012 12:24 AM)Quidsane Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 11:15 PM)Egor Wrote:  That's stupid.
You're a christian. Go fuck yourself.


And you Sir are a bigot. For shame.

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11-04-2012, 05:01 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2012 05:15 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(10-04-2012 09:14 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  Explain where I attacked a person.
Quote:Sure you can disagree with someone on here like the OP but just from what I'm reading you guys need to do a lot more researching before you reply in such ways.
You're stating that I (and others who disagree with you) are un-researched. Even if that were true, it wouldn't matter what I do or don't do. I'm asking you to stick just to responding to my arguments... and you did in this last post. Thanks for that.
(10-04-2012 09:14 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  
I've re-read my post, I've yet to find a straw man. You may have to point it out. Please read the post thoroughly. I think you missed some plural statements that didn't just include you. This may be what you are considering a straw man when in fact it was a blanket statement to cover other replies.
The analogy you used with the history doesn't really cover it very well. I was cross trained as a diesel mechanic in the military. Also some other courses as well e.g. Welding, auto-mechanics, HVAC, Network administrator, computer technician and so on. I can happily compare the analogy to this subject and it doesn't add up to the same thing. Especially when it comes to someone's life.
Quote:I think you're equivocating "medical field". Unless a doctor is directly working with discovering new vaccinations, it's unlikely that he or she would need a working knowledge of evolution to do his or her job. One can accept that vaccinations are needed every year and that they constantly change without believing in evolution... my theist parents would be great examples of such people. But it is my understanding that a person's symptoms do not reflect evolution nor require knowledge of evolution to translate, so evolution is not necessary for diagnosing, and medicines likewise do not change according to evolution so it isn't necessary to understand human evolution to match the right medicine with the symptoms.
My argument was not that evolution isn't beneficial to a doctor's job but that it "wasn't necessary". I explained in my last post how you were arguing that knowledge of evolution was useful and beneficial, not about how it was necessary.

My analogy may have been a poor one, but I was trying to show you that a person can do their job effectively without understanding why they have to do the job in such a way. It is common for people who don't believe in evolution to accept that viruses change over time and adapt to antibiotics. In fact, they will usually believe in genetic and hereditary changes and substitute these evolutionary concepts with "adapt" as I just did. But it isn't necessary for them to know "why" a disease can gain a resistance to antibiotics to accept that it does happen, in the same way that an astronomer doesn't have to know "why" planets rotate around the sun (gravity, discovered much later) to accept that the sun is the center of their orbits.

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12-04-2012, 02:45 PM
RE: You can't be BOTH an M.D. and a christian!
(10-04-2012 08:22 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Let me put it this way: I could be a mechanic without knowing the history of automobiles. Even if I didn't believe that a Ford Taurus is the result of the Ford Motor Company making small, incremental changes in design from the Model T to many other models over the years and instead thought that the Ford Taurus "always was", that still wouldn't make me incapable of diagnosing the problem with your Taurus or fixing it. In fact, I could still be an "expert" mechanic without the background knowledge.

This is awesome.
I don't care if it is contrary to my OP, haha.
It's pure gold. Thumbsup

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