"You can't be certain"
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18-01-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: "You can't be certain"
(18-01-2014 09:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 08:55 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I just heard that the Christ statue in Rio de Brazil was struck and damaged by lightning...that is so delicious!

Not enough, though.

Shoulda blown his head clean off. Fucking Zeus is slacking. Dodgy

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20-01-2014, 09:40 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
I think your dad also ignored the fact that Dawkins said that nobody can be 100% certain, but that also means that he can't be 100% certain that fairies don't exist. There are a countless number of gods that humans have come up with throughout history. Can your dad prove that those gods don't exist, or that they are not the creators of the universe? The problem with this whole "higher power" crap is that people always assume that if there is a higher power that it is their god/gods that they were indoctrinated to believe in. Ask him why is he so sure that his religion is right and all others are wrong. Ask him if the simple fact that he was indoctrinated to believe in his religion automatically makes his religion right.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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18-02-2014, 05:58 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
Ditto to Windy - There is pretty much several pages on how most atheists aren't 100% and that it is about consideration of the level of probability that there is probably no god/gods - in regards to the numbers or religions and variations in beliefs.
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20-02-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
My big problem with my dad is that he's smart. I am NOT going to out-argue him. He is an anti-trust lawyer, and a very good one at that. He is a magnificent orator. I am not. My strengths lie in different places. I can be absolutely right, (he dismisses time dilation due to a misunderstanding of quantum tunneling) but I will not be able to persuade him. I can't make the same kind of argument he can.

The other issue is one of etiquette. I don't want to tear him apart especially in front of two very small kids. If he wants to be an irrationalist that's his right.
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24-02-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: "You can't be certain"
(20-02-2014 06:43 PM)natachan Wrote:  My big problem with my dad is that he's smart. I am NOT going to out-argue him. He is an anti-trust lawyer, and a very good one at that. He is a magnificent orator. I am not. My strengths lie in different places. I can be absolutely right, (he dismisses time dilation due to a misunderstanding of quantum tunneling) but I will not be able to persuade him. I can't make the same kind of argument he can.

The other issue is one of etiquette. I don't want to tear him apart especially in front of two very small kids. If he wants to be an irrationalist that's his right.

If you suck as orator then improve yourself. Practice or something.
If you don't want to tear him up in front of kids you can tear him up not in front of kids.
First I suggest you study all the logical fallacies, logic, the great orators of history. Then read all the sam harris, hitchens etc books.
Write important points on paper. Practice debate in front of a mirror. Then obliterate and reduce that fucker to ashes.
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24-02-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: "You can't be certain"
(09-01-2014 12:22 AM)natachan Wrote:  "The universe is uncertain, you can not be certain of anything. He is certain."
Does he know of quantum mechanics?
Does he know quantum mechanics don't apply to a metaphysical being?
Anyways, the best retort to "you can't disprove god!" Is "you can prove god." Or the "why can't I? He's contradictory!"

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24-02-2014, 01:03 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
I just read this book actually, and I'll try and go back to find the particular passage, but Dawkins does reference the 'certainty' argument, and he makes it clear that he isn't speaking with the certainty of an all knowing omnipotent powerhouse, but he speaks with the same certainty that he does when stating that a particular country is in a particular axis/ timezone.

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24-02-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
(09-01-2014 12:22 AM)natachan Wrote:  Over the New Years holiday I went to visit my parents. Both know of my atheism, and have received it in rather mixed ways. My mom, who is a devout catholic, has been very accepting of it. My father however has been rather critical. He claims to be agnostic but when pressed his views fall somewhere between deism and revisionary Christianity. My mother is a rationalist, my father is an irrationalist. Both are highly educated, though not in science. My father is just educated enough to think he is an expert on science and physics. He took a survey course in college and has been reading popular science books since.

When going down to visit I had decided not to discuss my beliefs, since I have two young siblings (13 and 17 years younger than me) who are still in school and who I did not want to rely on my judgement. I also believe it would be rude since it is my parents decision how the two of them should be raised.

It is an eight hour drive there, so I had audiobooks loaded onto my phone. My dad asked to see my list and I allowed him to view it. He came to The God Delusion and he says to me: "you know the premise if this book is flawed."

"I don't think so."

"The universe is uncertain, you can not be certain of anything. He is certain."

"I don't think you've read the book," I say.

"I have. He is absolutely certain. Therefore his argument is invalid."

I really don't know how to respond to this. I don't want to be impolite and call his argument, which sounds suspiciously like the you-can't-disprove-God argument, out in front of my young siblings. But I also want him to stop the proselytizing.

He is certain of what?
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24-02-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
He implied that Dawkins was certain of the non-existence of god.

I was already near snapping at him because he implied that time dilation wasn't real and I wast tired of trying to explain to him that yes it is real and he didn't know what he was talking about.
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24-02-2014, 09:29 PM
RE: "You can't be certain"
(24-02-2014 08:39 PM)natachan Wrote:  He implied that Dawkins was certain of the non-existence of god.

I was already near snapping at him because he implied that time dilation wasn't real and I wast tired of trying to explain to him that yes it is real and he didn't know what he was talking about.

Well I read the book to and dawkins specifically implied that he can't be certain that there is no god so your father is a liar.
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