You don't have to go down into my basement...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-06-2015, 06:58 AM
You don't have to go down into my basement...
This is the first time I saw Dan Barker's video for Skepticon 4. It was also the first time I heard this analogy of Christianity and it is fricken brilliant. It really epitomizes the absurdity of the god / christ story. Laughat




**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Tonechaser77's post
17-06-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
That was a good presentation. I like all of Barker's talks.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes The Organic Chemist's post
17-06-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(17-06-2015 06:58 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  This is the first time I saw Dan Barker's video for Skepticon 4. It was also the first time I heard this analogy of Christianity and it is fricken brilliant. It really epitomizes the absurdity of the god / christ story. Laughat




It is a good analogy, though simplistic and trite, it is tightly constructed. I had to share it with an Evangelical Christian group I'm a part of it, to get there thoughts on it. But of course the Good news, as expressed by the Gospels, has no real relationship to the one expressed by Barker, that requires him to read back into text a butchered Penal substitutionary atonement theory to make it even remotely work.

While the video is good troll bait, and likely to give unbelievers an erection, a believer would likely dismiss it as a bit contrived and shallow, even if there might be some good points underneath all that the dog shit, it would likely be lost.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-06-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(17-06-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It is a good analogy, though simplistic and trite, it is tightly constructed. I had to share it with an Evangelical Christian group I'm a part of it, to get there thoughts on it. But of course the Good news, as expressed by the Gospels, has no real relationship to the one expressed by Barker, that requires him to read back into text a butchered Penal substitutionary atonement theory to make it even remotely work.

While the video is good troll bait, and likely to give unbelievers an erection, a believer would likely dismiss it as a bit contrived and shallow, even if there might be some good points underneath all that the dog shit, it would likely be lost.

It takes a 10,000 ft view and puts it into an understandable construct. Though maybe obscure, the basic premise of christianity is there. I don't see the video as troll bait, I see it as a good place to start a discussion with someone. Granted, I don't think it would immediately change a believer's mind, however it could open him/her up to a different line of thinking. The good news he is referring to is more in line with the modern doctrine of christianity, not what the bible actually states. Most believers don't study their bible enough to know what it truly states anyways. And of course, Dan is using sarcasm here to make the point stronger. It's a win, not a pile of dog shit as you suggested.

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Tonechaser77's post
17-06-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(17-06-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  While the video is good troll bait, and likely to give unbelievers an erection, a believer would likely dismiss it as a bit contrived and shallow, even if there might be some good points underneath all that the dog shit, it would likely be lost.

Diagnosis: Butthurt Big Grin

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like morondog's post
17-06-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(17-06-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It is a good analogy, though simplistic and trite, it is tightly constructed. I had to share it with an Evangelical Christian group I'm a part of it, to get there thoughts on it. But of course the Good news, as expressed by the Gospels, has no real relationship to the one expressed by Barker, that requires him to read back into text a butchered Penal substitutionary atonement theory to make it even remotely work.

While the video is good troll bait, and likely to give unbelievers an erection, a believer would likely dismiss it as a bit contrived and shallow, even if there might be some good points underneath all that the dog shit, it would likely be lost.

If it's a good analogy and *tightly constructed* then why would it be seen as contrived and shallow ?

I think you post just to see yourself talk. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Bucky Ball's post
18-06-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(17-06-2015 08:31 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  It takes a 10,000 ft view and puts it into an understandable construct. Though maybe obscure, the basic premise of christianity is there.

The basic premise of which Christianity? Of which Atonement theology?

Quote:I don't see the video as troll bait, I see it as a good place to start a discussion with someone.

It’s troll bait, the sort that would just antagonize your opponent, and stifle any meaningful discussion before it even begins. It’s basically a chick-tract for atheists, the sort that riles up the base, while annoying your opponents.

Quote:The good news he is referring to is more in line with the modern doctrine of christianity, not what the bible actually states.

I don’t think you know what the modern, or even premodern doctrines and views of Christianity are, I think you just know the sort of crude white fundamentalism of the church of your youth, and that’s about it, extending this perception to encompass the entirety of it. What is Anselm’s view of atonement? Particularly when he basically founded the satisfaction theory. What did he mean when he speaks of the “how” of atonement as not being clear? What is the catholic view in regards to atonement theology, since they tend to agree with Anselm?

Of course, you’ll say that the run of the mill theist, like your wife, or the christian buddy you went to church with, wouldn’t know the answers here either. But this only goes to show that most peoples knowledge on any topic, whether science, evolution, economics, healthcare ,climate change, politics, theology, etc.. tend to be fairly superficial, unless they have a reason, or some incentive to study or learn more about these things.

You can exploit this superficial knowledge of course, serving as fodder for strawman and bad arguments. Just like any creationist could grab a random schmuck who accepted evolution with only the cursory knowledge offered to him in an intro-bio course, and gloat about how he tripped him up so easily. There’s all sorts of youtube street interviews and Jimmy Kimmel sketches that take advantage of this.

What Dan Barker, and you don’t realize is that your understanding suffers from the same sort of superficiality as theirs, the only difference is that you erected a series a strawman out of it. It’s not a sketch formed from an insightful understanding of Christian theology or doctrine, it’s derived solely from the cursory knowledge of laymen, and exploited to their crudest forms. But even laymen can see the sketch is not an accurate one of their beliefs, though they may not know how to articulate or express why. And if they were to try and understand their beliefs better, they can see there’s a great deal more to it than that, and be able to recognize as to why the sketch rings false, while folks like Barker will just forever remain in the Dark.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
Ha- that was cute. Laugh out load

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-06-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 01:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 08:31 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  It takes a 10,000 ft view and puts it into an understandable construct. Though maybe obscure, the basic premise of christianity is there.

The basic premise of which Christianity? Of which Atonement theology?

Quote:I don't see the video as troll bait, I see it as a good place to start a discussion with someone.

It’s troll bait, the sort that would just antagonize your opponent, and stifle any meaningful discussion before it even begins. It’s basically a chick-tract for atheists, the sort that riles up the base, while annoying your opponents.

Quote:The good news he is referring to is more in line with the modern doctrine of christianity, not what the bible actually states.

I don’t think you know what the modern, or even premodern doctrines and views of Christianity are, I think you just know the sort of crude white fundamentalism of the church of your youth, and that’s about it, extending this perception to encompass the entirety of it. What is Anselm’s view of atonement? Particularly when he basically founded the satisfaction theory. What did he mean when he speaks of the “how” of atonement as not being clear? What is the catholic view in regards to atonement theology, since they tend to agree with Anselm?

Of course, you’ll say that the run of the mill theist, like your wife, or the christian buddy you went to church with, wouldn’t know the answers here either. But this only goes to show that most peoples knowledge on any topic, whether science, evolution, economics, healthcare ,climate change, politics, theology, etc.. tend to be fairly superficial, unless they have a reason, or some incentive to study or learn more about these things.

You can exploit this superficial knowledge of course, serving as fodder for strawman and bad arguments. Just like any creationist could grab a random schmuck who accepted evolution with only the cursory knowledge offered to him in an intro-bio course, and gloat about how he tripped him up so easily. There’s all sorts of youtube street interviews and Jimmy Kimmel sketches that take advantage of this.

What Dan Barker, and you don’t realize is that your understanding suffers from the same sort of superficiality as theirs, the only difference is that you erected a series a strawman out of it. It’s not a sketch formed from an insightful understanding of Christian theology or doctrine, it’s derived solely from the cursory knowledge of laymen, and exploited to their crudest forms. But even laymen can see the sketch is not an accurate one of their beliefs, though they may not know how to articulate or express why. And if they were to try and understand their beliefs better, they can see there’s a great deal more to it than that, and be able to recognize as to why the sketch rings false, while folks like Barker will just forever remain in the Dark.

How is the Barker video not accurate re: beliefs? God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished. How is that any different from the Barker analogy?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like jennybee's post
18-06-2015, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2015 02:51 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 02:35 PM)jennybee Wrote:  How is the Barker video not accurate re: beliefs? God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished. How is that any different from the Barker analogy?


No, that's right up there with Barker's analogy.

Now, let ask a question if I took your summary of Christian beliefs to any group of random theists:

"God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished."

Do you think most of them would agree with it?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: