You don't have to go down into my basement...
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18-06-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 01:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What Dan Barker, and you don’t realize is that your understanding suffers from the same sort of superficiality as theirs, ...
Nope.

What you don't understand, (along with Q and the endless parade of ego driven christians that frequent here), is what faith, is.
While you present yourself better than Q it is only marginally, so.

You'd do well to be less of a christian and more of a believer.
But eh. Dodgy

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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18-06-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 02:35 PM)jennybee Wrote:  How is the Barker video not accurate re: beliefs? God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished. How is that any different from the Barker analogy?


No, that's right up there with Barker's analogy.

Now, let ask a question if I took your summary of Christian beliefs to any group of random theists:

"God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished."

Do you think most of them would agree with it?

Speaking as a former Christian, I would say most would agree that my statement was an accurate statement. However, what they would not agree with is the *way* in which I said it. They would say: God so loved the world that He gave his only son to cover our sins so that we may have eternal life. God loves us and wants us to love Him--but there are some who choose to disobey and not believe. God allows this because He didn't want to create robots. However, disobeying coupled with disbelief comes with a penalty i.e. hell.

To me, this mindset is the equivalent of an abusive spouse. You meet someone, they say they love you and want you to love them. Sounds great--until they tell you that if you don't love them; if you think for yourself--they will torture you for eternity. That is not the definition of love. That is the definition of control by fear.
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18-06-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 03:07 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  What you don't understand, (along with Q and the endless parade of ego driven christians that frequent here), is what faith, is.

And what is that?

Quote:You'd do well to be less of a christian and more of a believer.
But eh. Dodgy

I think my problem is that I'm more of a believer and less of a christian. I got the believing part down, and have't figured out the living part.
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18-06-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(17-06-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It is a good analogy, though simplistic and trite, it is tightly constructed. I had to share it with an Evangelical Christian group I'm a part of it, to get there thoughts on it.

So you are a Christian!!!!!

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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18-06-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 03:34 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It is a good analogy, though simplistic and trite, it is tightly constructed. I had to share it with an Evangelical Christian group I'm a part of it, to get there thoughts on it.

So you are a Christian!!!!!

He is, but he spends most of his time making vacuous statements in some kinda philosobabble attempt to justify just the existence of *some* kinda deity, so you could be forgiven for not picking it up.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-06-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 03:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think my problem is that I'm more of a believer and less of a christian. I got the believing part down, and have't figured out the living part.

If you haven't worked out the living part, then why are you on an atheist forum engaged in debating?

Answer; You're here because you haven't worked out the living part. Or as you put it a few weeks ago, "seeking insight".

See how that works? You're just chasing your tail.

Spiritually, you're immature. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you choose to lean on your own understanding, a babe in the faith you'll remain.

You show far more promise of growth than any other christian I've seen stumble through here. (Excepting KC, naturally.)

Work on it.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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22-06-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 03:54 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  If you haven't worked out the living part, then why are you on an atheist forum engaged in debating?

I guess the question should be why not? I was participating in forums like this before I was much a of a believer in anything, and I like it, so I stuck around.

Quote:Answer; You're here because you haven't worked out the living part. Or as you put it a few weeks ago, "seeking insight".

You're perhaps right about the curious part, that much of the reason why I enjoy places like this is because it feeds my curiosity. When I see people that are quite different than me, I always want to know why that is. You may think I see this division as a matter of believer vs unbeliever, but in all honesty atheism is just one aspect, perhaps even a superficial part of these differences. The fact that most people here are white males, often living in more rural areas, with different family structures, and lives, unlike my own ethnic minority experiences, are also significant parts of my curiosity.

I know that my participation here, is often seen through the lens of the experience of white guys, of white churches, etc... through the palette of the white experience, while I might be prone to do the same, through my own brown lens, I just know that it's likely to be very inaccurate. I'm always curious about questions of identify, of self, what distinguishes oneself from others unlike oneself, what do we have in common, etc.., and that question goes well beyond whether one believes in god or not.

Quote:See how that works? You're just chasing your tail.

I don't think so. Everyday I learn something new, not just about others, but also myself. I can be irritable, and annoyed quite easily, go off the reservation a bit, but I can't particularly escape my nature all that well. But beyond these moments, I think my relationship here varies with different people, some of these relationship are positive, and amiable, and others less so.

Quote:Spiritually, you're immature. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you choose to lean on your own understanding, a babe in the faith you'll remain.

You show far more promise of growth than any other christian I've seen stumble through here. (Excepting KC, naturally.)

I don't know what "spiritual immaturity" here means, if you're saying I'm not a very good christian you're probably right. The person who drew me to christianity was Dostoevsky, and he was scoundrel all his life.

But I'm assuming when you say this, that you see yourself as an example of spiritual maturity, an adult, as opposed to my "babe"? Perhaps you imagine a younger version of yourself in me, one that you grew out of?

And I know you mean well, when you speak of seeing a promise of growth, but I just want to be. I want to live and be as I please here. What character flaws, whatever areas of growth as a person, I have a wife, friends, and family to help figure that out.

I don't need some stranger on the internet, who I think i've communicated with perhaps 3 times in total, to advise me on what I need to work on or not, because there probably a lot more to it, then you'd understand, but that's fine.
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22-06-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(22-06-2015 11:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess the question should be why not? I was participating in forums like this before I was much a of a believer in anything, and I like it, so I stuck around.
It's not the participation I am highlighting, it's the "why". Your motivation other than to "gain insight". The reason of your pushback toward the atheist, in discussions. Any attempt to explain faith, or discuss in favor of your faith-based worldview, is vanity and displays a lack of understanding regarding faith on your part. A criticism, sure. Yet a criticism validated by how your expressed positions have been received here, by the non-believer as a whole.

Tomasia Wrote:You're perhaps right about the curious part, that much of the reason why I enjoy places like this is because it feeds my curiosity. When I see people that are quite different than me, I always want to know why that is. You may think I see this division as a matter of believer vs unbeliever, but in all honesty atheism is just one aspect, perhaps even a superficial part of these differences. The fact that most people here are white males, often living in more rural areas, with different family structures, and lives, unlike my own ethnic minority experiences, are also significant parts of my curiosity.

I know that my participation here, is often seen through the lens of the experience of white guys, of white churches, etc... through the palette of the white experience, while I might be prone to do the same, through my own brown lens, I just know that it's likely to be very inaccurate. I'm always curious about questions of identify, of self, what distinguishes oneself from others unlike oneself, what do we have in common, etc.., and that question goes well beyond whether one believes in god or not.

Yep. I get it.
As a believer, ones ethnicity, gender, intelligence, social status, education, economic degree, or health, should be secondary. That's not to say that what you find important to your sense of self or your life should be less important, but that your faith should be more important. If you take my meaning.

This; "... but in all honesty atheism is just one aspect, perhaps even a superficial part of these differences.", is outstanding. You are understanding, on a level, that the atheist is not a nemesis of the believer in Christ.
Never has been.

Good. I'll be interested to see if you will expound upon that for yourself.

Kestrel Wrote:See how that works? You're just chasing your tail.

Tomasia Wrote:I don't think so. Everyday I learn something new, not just about others, but also myself. I can be irritable, and annoyed quite easily, go off the reservation a bit, but I can't particularly escape my nature all that well. But beyond these moments, I think my relationship here varies with different people, some of these relationship are positive, and amiable, and others less so.

Yeah but that's just the world and speaks to all of us equally.
From a faith based viewpoint all movement, in this venue by you, is lateral. No one stays satisfied with lateral.

Kestrel Wrote:Spiritually, you're immature. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you choose to lean on your own understanding, a babe in the faith you'll remain.

Tomasia Wrote:I don't know what "spiritual immaturity" here means, if you're saying I'm not a very good christian you're probably right.

No that's not what I'm saying. I wouldn't know.
The next speaks to what I refer to;

Tomasia Wrote:The person who drew me to christianity was Dostoevsky...

That is incorrect. I take your meaning, but spiritually incorrect.

Tomasia Wrote:But I'm assuming when you say this, that you see yourself as an example of spiritual maturity, an adult, as opposed to my "babe"?

LOL! Hardly. I'm certainly farther down the path, but not all that far ahead.

Tomasia Wrote:And I know you mean well, when you speak of seeing a promise of growth, but I just want to be. I want to live and be as I please here. What character flaws, whatever areas of growth as a person, I have a wife, friends, and family to help figure that out.

I don't need some stranger on the internet, who I think i've communicated with perhaps 3 times in total, to advise me on what I need to work on or not, because there probably a lot more to it, then you'd understand, but that's fine.

uh huh.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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22-06-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(22-06-2015 01:32 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  
Tomasia Wrote:But I'm assuming when you say this, that you see yourself as an example of spiritual maturity, an adult, as opposed to my "babe"?

LOL! Hardly. I'm certainly farther down the path, but not all that far ahead.

While I'm all for seeing Tommy get spanked, aren't you bein' a lil' bit judgy, old bean? I thought JC was pretty clear that that was a no-no. Although the apostle Jimmy helpfully muddied the water a bit later IIRC by clarifying that Christians are allowed to be judges in worldly matters...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-06-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(22-06-2015 01:37 PM)morondog Wrote:  While I'm all for seeing Tommy get spanked, aren't you bein' a lil' bit judgy, old bean? I thought JC was pretty clear that that was a no-no.


It could be seen that way. But I measure by no yardstick that I'm not willing be applied to myself.

I do not judge Tomasia's heart, at his offer of thinking that perhaps I didn't view him as "a very good christian", I correctly responded that I wouldn't know.

I judged and praised his current feelings toward the non-believer.

It's good.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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